Utica Square Like Place -

[zstyles]

Why is Utica Square so timeless and successful...why can't it be done in another part of Tulsa, why isn't a place like this being developed downtown or even converting a exisiting dated shopping center? Why are developers stuck on the "McDonald looks" of shopping center which really offer no draw other than "I need to go buy shoes". Perhaps this is the old school oil money..but I thought the story of Utica Square was interesting...

"The developers of Utica Square had the community in mind. The village-like design was developed to be inviting to the customer without alienating neighboring residents. This new concept was considered risky but Utica Square opened on May 22, 1952 as Tulsa's first suburban shopping center.

Helmerich & Payne, Inc. purchased Utica Square in 1964. Almost immediately, Mr. Walter H. Helmerich, III commissioned the planting of over 300 trees. He simply wanted to "make the Square beautiful." Today, Utica Square is not only known for its quality stores and restaurants but also its beautifully manicured gardens and trees.

Since its purchase by Helmerich & Payne, Utica Square has earned a reputation as the area's finest shopping center. This can be attributed to Helmerich & Payne's vested interest in the Tulsa community. Mr. Helmerich felt that a high concentration of quality merchants would greatly improve the retail industry in Tulsa. Utica Square began to attract the best local merchants as well as many popular national merchants.

This dynamic mix proved to be the key to Utica Square's success and is the reason why this trend continues today.

[Townsend]

I don't have an answer but I can say it's the only mall in Tulsa I enjoy wandering around in.

I look forward to going to Utica Square.  The other malls...not at all.  I want in and out immediately.

It'd be wonderful to have another.

[Kashmir]

I love it too, it's a family tradition before Christmas to eat dinner there and take the kids pics with the nutcrackers.  There is a good mix of vintage style and modern in the buildings.  BUT lately the big mammer-jammer SUV's speeding around the parking lot could mow you down.

[sgrizzle]

It can, but it takes a lot of up front cash to make. The "Tulsa Landing" project would be like utica square, but more scenic.

[Gaspar]

Every new developer that walks in our office wants to do a "Utica Square" type development, and we have started on many, but once you get into the nuts and bolts of floor-space, parking, and services, you find that we have both regulated and marketed ourselves away from being able to do this type of development.

The various jurisdictions want higher parking counts and wider lanes.  The national retailers demand very specific space, design, and sign requirements most require significant rear service and trash access, and the only way they will compromise is if you are offering a space with established demographics.

If Utica Square opened today, without it's significant Demographic history, Saks, Restoration Hardware, Pier One, Williams-Sonoma, Pottery Barn, and most of the other national retailers wouldn't touch it because it couldn't meet their development requirements.

So what happens is that the developer has a good vision, but as the development progresses, the city, the banks, and the retailers interject their requirements, and you get what you get.  You can't blame the developers, they are just trying to satisfy their customers.  

If they refuse to compromise, it won't get built.

Also, keep in mind that the most important factor influencing the atmosphere at Utica Square is its location and high quality maintenance.  It has several very severe flaws that are extremely problematic for its tenants, but they are very willing to compromise for the sake of doing business there.

I wish 5th night was all year long!  []

[zstyles]

Gasper...thank you for that inside angle...! Very informative!

[TheArtist]

It is interesting. Utica square, the actual old buildings arent eye catching or upscale in appearance. If I were an out of towner driving by or were to show someone a picture of Utica Square (not showing the Sacks sign lol) I dont think anyone would immediately think "Oh, wow what a great, upscale shopping center". It can appear quite out dated actually. But when your actually there and walking around in it, its very enjoyable. Also the large trees and gardens add a lot and there is now a mixture of styles since new stuff has been added and remodeled. You wouldnt think it would be difficult to replicate or that its even all that unique. But in thinking about it... I cant think of a single other shopping center that you can drive completely around and enter, in several places, on all 4 sides. And its not fenced off or blocked off from whats around it. There is of course the obvious fact of its history and location, location, location, in a beautiful, wealthy part of town. I also think that being on a half mile street (I wish we could make more of those) instead of at a large intersection or off a wide street like you would find in South Tulsa, gives it a cozier feel and helps tie it in to whats around it.

[Renaissance]

Highland Park Village in Dallas is very similar, more upscale.

[SXSW]

The area is a big reason Utica Square is what it is.  It has a dense, more urban feel than other parts of town and it's surrounded by really nice older neighborhoods.  It also has lots of mature trees and the Helmerich's put a lot of money into the landscaping that other owners would never do.

[Red Arrow]

quote:Originally posted by Townsend

I don't have an answer but I can say it's the only mall in Tulsa I enjoy wandering around in.

I look forward to going to Utica Square.  The other malls...not at all.  I want in and out immediately.

It'd be wonderful to have another.

Most malls don't have anything of interest to me unless I have a need for a specific product (like a pair of jeans). I like to get in and out and not waste time even though my time is not so scheduled that I can't waste some. When I do get to some place like Utica Square, I wonder how many of the shops generate enough business to stay open. Some shops are interesting enough to look around but I hardly ever buy anything.  I also feel like I use as much gas looking for a place to park as I used getting there from sprawling suburbia. Then I want to wrap my car in foam to protect it from door dings. I don't try to get a space by the front door and I don't mind walking a bit. I usually walk about 2 miles during my lunch break just for the exercise.  Utica Square is certainly more charming than the places like Woodland Hills but I generally only go to Utica Square when I can't think of something to buy for a birthday or Christmas present.  Even then I usually meet with minimal success.  I'm just a terrible shopper.

There are places I like to "window shop" but they don't usually occur at malls, quaint or otherwise. Places like Steve's Wholesale are fun for me. I also liked wandering through auto salvage (not junk, I was once informed) yards when they would allow you to do it. I usually go with something specific in mind and then just see other interesting stuff.

[swake]

Utica badly needs a hotel. For that matter so does Brookside, and Cherry Street?

Why do the areas in Tulsa where visitors like to visit not have any hotels? In other cities these areas would be surrounded by hotels.

[we vs us]

quote:Originally posted by swake

Utica badly needs a hotel. For that matter so does Brookside, and Cherry Street?

Why do the areas in Tulsa where visitors like to visit not have any hotels? In other cities these areas would be surrounded by hotels.

Not enough other business around there, and access to major highways is kinda limited.

Also, lack of vision? Tulsa's habit of liking the past too much and future too little?

[bigdtottown]

Utica Square is an awesome shopping center and I don't even like shopping.  Someone mentioned Highland Park Village in Dallas.  Both are very similar but Utica's a lot bigger, although Highland Park Village is on a major push to be even more upscale, which is why they booted Harolds out.  We spend a lot of time in Highland Park Village since we happen to live within a few blocks of it, but we'd probably go out of our way to go there, just like Utica is worth the trip.  Southlake Town Square is very similar to Utica and has done well beyond anyone's expectation.  I met the developer while in a graduate school class and I asked him if he was familiar with Utica Square and he said absolutely and spoke very highly of it.  Not to say he got the idea from Utica Square but it's safe to say Utica is well known amongst high end developers.
BTW, I also happen to like Steve's Wholesale but I've never tried to decide should I got to Utica or Steve's...not really an apples to apples comparison from a shopping perspective.

[tshane250]

quote: Not enough other business around there, and access to major highways is kinda limited.  

The situation around Utica Square is similar to the area around the Double Tree at Warren Place.  There are two major hospitals within a mile of Utica Square and the actual amount of employment within a one mile radius of 21st and Utica is just over 17,000 with almost 750 employers.  Compare that to 16,300 employees with almost 600 employers for the one mile radius around 61st and Yale.  Additionally, both locations do not abut a major highway.  So, I see no reason a hotel wouldn't work at Utica Square.

Edit:  I forgot to include all of the touristy things there are around Utica versus 61st and Yale, not to mention proximity to downtown, TU, and even the fairgrounds.

[unknown]

A hotel would also serve well for St John. I've gotten numerous calls from out of towners wanting to know where the closet hotel to the hospital was. The lot where the old H&P building was would be a good place for one