Utica Square Like Place -

[zstyles]

Agreed.....but it is F&M bank....which I am sure holds H&P deposits!

[TheArtist]

I can tell some are probably not used to thinking urban redevelopment.[] I could see a midrise apartment/condo tower right over the Sacks for instance. That red brick condo tower to the east of Utica Square has a lot of property it could redevelop along with the properties across the street to the north of it. None of those things would risk any historic buildings or homes and with the right architecture, set backs, landscaping etc. would add to the cozy, upscale, laid back, urban character of the area.  

[Red Arrow]

While "you all" are planning for a dense urban neighborhood, I hope you are also planning for an effective public transportation system. Filling a few medium rise buildings will overload the streets in the area.  Planning to  have no parking without public transportation seems foolish.  

Will the rest of the infrastructure such as water supply, sewers, etc handle the load or will you create the same problem as SE Tulsa with water and sewers being the new streets problem?

I am not against the idea.  Just make sure that the obvious is not neglected.

[Renaissance]

There's already a massive hospital, an outdoor mall, and several midrise office and residential towers in the immediate area.  A few more developments aren't going to cause additional infrastructure strain.  That's the point of infill--the infrastructure is already there, and you aren't building new roads and sewers further and further from the core.  

I agree that public transit can always improve.  Although Tulsa Transit does a good job now of servicing St. Johns and the surroundings.

[Red Arrow]

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

There's already a massive hospital, an outdoor mall, and several midrise office and residential towers in the immediate area.  A few more developments aren't going to cause additional infrastructure strain.  That's the point of infill--the infrastructure is already there, and you aren't building new roads and sewers further and further from the core.  

I agree that public transit can always improve.  Although Tulsa Transit does a good job now of servicing St. Johns and the surroundings.

Perhaps you have some specific knowledge about the size of the water, sanitary sewer, and electric service to the area. I don't.  I would be concerned that existing massive hospital and several midrise office and residential towers in the immediate area may already have the infrastructure near its capacity. I wouldn't expect much change in the requirement for storm sewers.

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by Red Arrow

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

There's already a massive hospital, an outdoor mall, and several midrise office and residential towers in the immediate area.  A few more developments aren't going to cause additional infrastructure strain.  That's the point of infill--the infrastructure is already there, and you aren't building new roads and sewers further and further from the core.  

I agree that public transit can always improve.  Although Tulsa Transit does a good job now of servicing St. Johns and the surroundings.

Perhaps you have some specific knowledge about the size of the water, sanitary sewer, and electric service to the area. I don't.  I would be concerned that existing massive hospital and several midrise office and residential towers in the immediate area may already have the infrastructure near its capacity. I wouldn't expect much change in the requirement for storm sewers.

Well if the services have to be improved in the area, so be it. Would be the same just about anywhere you wanted to add that kind of density,,, or sprawl. We cant just say,,, Nope, no more density in any other place except downtown. Remember to, there was a midrise tower where the Helmerich and Payne headquarters once was, and apartments where Utica Place is now. Replacing the one tower that is now gone with another one cant be all that disastrous, and adding 2 or 3 more in the area isnt likely to be too taxing.

As for density causing more traffic. Hogwash. We are not talking Hong Kong/Manhattan Island type density here. Was there a noticeable drop off when Helmerich and Payne moved? Has Utica Place caused congestion and traffic problems? How about the addition of the new Hospital expansion and doctors office tower? Hasnt brought 21st and Utica to a standstill.

Not to mention, if we are going to try and make mass transit and other modes of transportation other than cars, truly viable. We are going to need more, medium density nodes. Plus, if you live some where like Utica Place, you dont have to drive to the grocery store, you dont have to drive to the bank, may not have to drive to work, dont have to drive as much to shopping and dining out,,, and when you do drive places, you dont have to drive far which in itself alleviates over all traffic. Plus, once you get more nodes, being able to add mass transit into that mix to connect them, also help. You get to the point where you say... If your fretting about traffic, ITS BECAUSE YOUR DRIVING STUPID! lol.

You wont have to drive as much in those areas. And you wont really have to drive as much TO those areas because you may be living in or near a comparable node yourself (much of what you need will be nearby), and or can just take mass transit from one node to the other.

Yes, the transition from what we have to a "decent amount of density and density nodes/ decent mass transit" may be a bit tricky on many fronts. But, the alternative is worse.  And what choce do we really have?  

If you put exactly the same number of living, shoppin, office, hotel, etc. that is being talked about here for instance, in, lets say a more suburban type area in mid-town or near downtown. And those developments were more suburban in nature (houses instead of midrise). That would cause more traffic because people would indeed likely have to drive to every single thing. Including to possibly Utica Square.  Now if we used those midrise developments to grow and enhance other potential walkable districts, that would be great too. But the Utica Square area is currently a rare showcase of a decent mix of offerings, from grocery, living, work, shops, restaurants, etc. and pedestrian friendly "medium" density. Would be nice to enhance it with the proper mix of a few more buildings to bring its potential into full fruition. Doing the 3 or 4 potential infill suggestions I mentioned would be the finishing touches to that area. Its almost unfortunate that there isnt more midrise living in that area for people to be able to take advantage of it. (midrise as in mostly 4-6 stories, Tulsa scale midrise in other words lol, with the occasional up to 15ish)

[Red Arrow]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

quote:Originally posted by Red Arrow

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

There's already a massive hospital, an outdoor mall, and several midrise office and residential towers in the immediate area.  A few more developments aren't going to cause additional infrastructure strain.  That's the point of infill--the infrastructure is already there, and you aren't building new roads and sewers further and further from the core.  

I agree that public transit can always improve.  Although Tulsa Transit does a good job now of servicing St. Johns and the surroundings.

Perhaps you have some specific knowledge about the size of the water, sanitary sewer, and electric service to the area. I don't.  I would be concerned that existing massive hospital and several midrise office and residential towers in the immediate area may already have the infrastructure near its capacity. I wouldn't expect much change in the requirement for storm sewers.

Well if the services have to be improved in the area, so be it. Would be the same just about anywhere you wanted to add that kind of density,,, or sprawl. We cant just say,,, Nope, no more density in any other place except downtown. Remember to, there was a midrise tower where the Helmerich and Payne headquarters once was, and apartments where Utica Place is now. Replacing the one tower that is now gone with another one cant be all that disastrous, and adding 2 or 3 more in the area isnt likely to be too taxing.

As for density causing more traffic. Hogwash. We are not talking Hong Kong/Manhattan Island type density here. Was there a noticeable drop off when Helmerich and Payne moved? Has Utica Place caused congestion and traffic problems? How about the addition of the new Hospital expansion and doctors office tower? Hasnt brought 21st and Utica to a standstill.

Not to mention, if we are going to try and make mass transit and other modes of transportation other than cars, truly viable. We are going to need more, medium density nodes. Plus, if you live some where like Utica Place, you dont have to drive to the grocery store, you dont have to drive to the bank, may not have to drive to work, dont have to drive as much to shopping and dining out,,, and when you do drive places, you dont have to drive far which in itself alleviates over all traffic. Plus, once you get more nodes, being able to add mass transit into that mix to connect them, also help. You get to the point where you say... If your fretting about traffic, ITS BECAUSE YOUR DRIVING STUPID! lol.

You wont have to drive as much in those areas. And you wont really have to drive as much TO those areas because you may be living in or near a comparable node yourself (much of what you need will be nearby), and or can just take mass transit from one node to the other.

Yes, the transition from what we have to a "decent amount of density and density nodes/ decent mass transit" may be a bit tricky on many fronts. But, the alternative is worse.  And what choce do we really have?  

If you put exactly the same number of living, shoppin, office, hotel, etc. that is being talked about here for instance, in, lets say a more suburban type area in mid-town or near downtown. And those developments were more suburban in nature (houses instead of midrise). That would cause more traffic because people would indeed likely have to drive to every single thing. Including to possibly Utica Square.  Now if we used those midrise developments to grow and enhance other potential walkable districts, that would be great too. But the Utica Square area is currently a rare showcase of a decent mix of offerings, from grocery, living, work, shops, restaurants, etc. and pedestrian friendly "medium" density. Would be nice to enhance it with the proper mix of a few more buildings to bring its potential into full fruition. Doing the 3 or 4 potential infill suggestions I mentioned would be the finishing touches to that area. Its almost unfortunate that there isnt more midrise living in that area for people to be able to take advantage of it. (midrise as in mostly 4-6 stories, Tulsa scale midrise in other words lol, with the occasional up to 15ish)

Nice rant.

If it's directed at me, please re-read my last line on my post in this thread of 10/18/2008: 10:42:18

[TheArtist]

Wasnt intended as a "rant" just stating some thoughts and opinions. Stating some things that set up a difference in belief for statements like... "Filling a few medium rise buildings will overload the streets in the area." I dont think they will. And  
"Planning to have no parking without public transportation seems foolish." (Where you got that there wasnt going to be any new parking in the first place, I dont know. Wasnt mentioned one way or the other though I would prefer as little parking as possible) Next time I mention adding a few buildings somewhere I will also always add that we need to add public transportation to them or parking, electric, sewer, trash pick up, mail, additional teachers to the local schools perhaps, affordable housing, handicap accessibility, proper lighting and signage,etc. etc.

[Red Arrow]

Artist:

Some ideas, thoughts, and opinions:

carltonplace, 10/17/2008: 11:01:23  "I'm not sure how much more traffic that intersection can handle."

SXSW, 10/17/2008: 14:44:03  "...Something tall like 20-25 stories would be great..."

YoungTulsan, 10/17/2008: 15:29:2008  "...I realize adding a hotel/condos will inevitably add traffic, but it is probably the best solution anyways."

SXSW, 10/17/2008: 16:01:45  "There's also a large parking lot on Utica just north of 19th, probably for future hospital expansion though."


OurTulsa, 10/17/2008: 17:07:55      "There are some small spots along Utica Av. going north but I think you could also fill in Utica Square. There are some parking lots on the southern edge that could easily accommodate multi-story structures filled with office/residential space and retail at the ground level. I can also see some of the structures that make up Utica Sq. being redeveloped. The bank at the corner: Goodbye. I don't see a drive-thru bank as an efficient use of land and the highest and best use of real estate at that corner. Utica Sq. could have their signature building on that corner."


You:  and when you do drive places, you dont have to drive far which in itself alleviates over all traffic.

Me: but you still need a place to put that car.

I agree, no one actually said "no parking places" except me.  There is a feeling among some on this forum that cars are evil and should be eliminated ASAP. Eliminating parking is one way to do that. Greatly reducing parking to the point of making cars impractical has been mentioned in another thread but I am not going to take the time to find it. What you have proposed as a couple or 4 to 5 story buildings will probably not have a large impact on any of the infrastructure.  I think others have more grand plans in mind.

I would like to reiterate that I am not against the idea of developing the Utica Square area. There are already some big buildings etc in the area. As you said, if we need to upgrade the utilities, do it. I did not intend the discussion to get down to the level of how many PED-Xing signs will be needed.  I do want to draw attention to the fact that planting a few large (20-25 story?) buildings may tax the existing infrastructure and that streets are not the only infrastructure to be considered.

[TheArtist]

Ok, thanks for the info.

[SXSW]

As the discussion has moved to Utica Square, here are 4 things I would like to see there to add density:

1. Upscale hotel/condo tower at the H&P property.  There is space behind that property to build an attached parking garage and meeting/conference facilities.  A top floor restaurant there with some of the best skyline views in the city would be pretty cool.

2. F&M Bank at 21st & Utica could be moved and replaced with a retail "anchor" for Utica Square.  Maybe the Border's Books further east on 21st would move?

3. Another restaurant, something new to Tulsa, at the last remaining open lot in Utica Square, at the SE corner by P.F. Chang.

4. Dense residential at the open space south of Utica Place by Cascia Hall along Utica.  Who owns that piece of property anyway, the school?

[unknown]

Doesn't H&P still own the parking garage next to the Davis tower? Would be nice to renovate and expand it for hotel use.

[YoungTulsan]

By the way, you guys say 21st & Utica would need infrastructure improvements.  21st & Utica, 21st from Peoria to Lewis, and Utica from 21st to Terwilliger are all projects that will be done under the streets plan coming up for vote.

[SXSW]

quote:Originally posted by YoungTulsan

By the way, you guys say 21st & Utica would need infrastructure improvements.  21st & Utica, 21st from Peoria to Lewis, and Utica from 21st to Terwilliger are all projects that will be done under the streets plan coming up for vote.

What do they need to do to 21st?  It's already 4 lanes.  And Utica?

[YoungTulsan]

It could just be resurfacing, but they are included in the maps detailing the work to be done under the new streets plan.  The actual intersection itself is also listed.  Maybe a slight widening/extension of the turn lanes, and new traffic lights with better technology could help the intersection flow better.  Maybe additional/improved sidewalks too?

It really isn't that bad right now, the traffic only gets moderately heavy during the work day.  Nothing that could be considered a "traffic jam" ever occurs anywhere in this part of town.

As far as the resurfacing goes, the water line work has completely obliterated Utica between 31st and 41st.  It is a pockmarked horror to drive on now.  They need to resurface that stretch instead.