The "Rich" are Now Those Making More than 200K

[TheArtist]

"Answer me this. Do you think it is fair that millions of people who comprise that 3% should pay more in taxes than America's median annual income? In other words, should these people pay more in taxes than the average family earns?"

Absolutely. Why should it be otherwise? I am absolutely baffled that someone would think otherwise?

I probably pay more in taxes than some people earn. And wont mind paying more if I get more of what I want.

When we gather together as a society and elect to "do" things, I understand that not all of those things are going to be something I would personally want to spend my money on. There will be compromises and I will get something of what I want in the mix. Since we all live in the society we cant elect to "opt out" whenever we dont like this or that, change our mind, dont want to pay for a particular thing, etc. The "social contract" wouldnt work otherwise(see "Little Red Hen, Ant and the Grasshopper). Yes we are all individuals, but we are all one society as well.  We should share in that societal contract, proportionally. When I tithe at my church I dont argue with the 10% saying that its unfair, that just because I make more money doesnt mean I should pay in more than someone else makes. That would be absurd. To one person a "silver shekel" is a mere "widows mite". To another, a mite is a precious silver shekel.

[Red Arrow]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist
When I tithe at my church I dont argue with the 10% saying that its unfair, that just because I make more money doesnt mean I should pay in more than someone else makes.

Since you obviously have more money than you need to exist, perhaps you should give 20% or more to the church. You can afford it.

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by Red Arrow

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist
When I tithe at my church I dont argue with the 10% saying that its unfair, that just because I make more money doesnt mean I should pay in more than someone else makes.

Since you obviously have more money than you need to exist, perhaps you should give 20% or more to the church. You can afford it.

I very well could. And perhaps some day will give everything I have to the church, a museum, the city, or some good cause. I could also give more to the government. I know I do my fair share in paying local sales taxes lol. And I am not a stickler on state and fed taxes and often probably pay more than I have to. I also hire people to do things I could do myself. I dont need a cleaning lady, could do it myself. Dont need to have someone do my yard, could do that myself as well. And I hope that I pay generously. I also try to invest. I also give a lot away and donate my time and work to different things. Though I live "small but well" I am embarrassingly fortunate in my book, and I am not one of the top 10 or 5%. Perhaps if those people paid in an amount that was a little more equitable to what the majority pay in,,, then the rest wouldnt have to pay as much and would thus have more to spend, or, if we chose we could do more of what we as a society elect to do... or a little of both.

   

[Red Arrow]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

quote:Originally posted by Red Arrow

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist
When I tithe at my church I dont argue with the 10% saying that its unfair, that just because I make more money doesnt mean I should pay in more than someone else makes.

Since you obviously have more money than you need to exist, perhaps you should give 20% or more to the church. You can afford it.

I very well could. And perhaps some day will give everything I have to the church, a museum, the city, or some good cause. I could also give more to the government. I know I do my fair share in paying local sales taxes lol. And I am not a stickler on state and fed taxes and often probably pay more than I have to. I also hire people to do things I could do myself. I dont need a cleaning lady, could do it myself. Dont need to have someone do my yard, could do that myself as well. And I hope that I pay generously. I also try to invest. I also give a lot away and donate my time and work to different things. Though I live "small but well" I am embarrassingly fortunate in my book, and I am not one of the top 10 or 5%. Perhaps if those people paid in an amount that was a little more equitable to what the majority pay in,,, then the rest wouldnt have to pay as much and would thus have more to spend, or, if we chose we could do more of what we as a society elect to do... or a little of both.

   

And there is nothing wrong with what you are doing.  The point I would like to make is that it is your choice to do these things.

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by Red Arrow

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

quote:Originally posted by Red Arrow

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist
When I tithe at my church I dont argue with the 10% saying that its unfair, that just because I make more money doesnt mean I should pay in more than someone else makes.

Since you obviously have more money than you need to exist, perhaps you should give 20% or more to the church. You can afford it.

I very well could. And perhaps some day will give everything I have to the church, a museum, the city, or some good cause. I could also give more to the government. I know I do my fair share in paying local sales taxes lol. And I am not a stickler on state and fed taxes and often probably pay more than I have to. I also hire people to do things I could do myself. I dont need a cleaning lady, could do it myself. Dont need to have someone do my yard, could do that myself as well. And I hope that I pay generously. I also try to invest. I also give a lot away and donate my time and work to different things. Though I live "small but well" I am embarrassingly fortunate in my book, and I am not one of the top 10 or 5%. Perhaps if those people paid in an amount that was a little more equitable to what the majority pay in,,, then the rest wouldnt have to pay as much and would thus have more to spend, or, if we chose we could do more of what we as a society elect to do... or a little of both.

   

And there is nothing wrong with what you are doing.  The point I would like to make is that it is your choice to do these things.

The sky is blue...Aaaand?  

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

"Answer me this. Do you think it is fair that millions of people who comprise that 3% should pay more in taxes than America's median annual income? In other words, should these people pay more in taxes than the average family earns?"

Absolutely. Why should it be otherwise? I am absolutely baffled that someone would think otherwise?

I probably pay more in taxes than some people earn. And wont mind paying more if I get more of what I want.

When we gather together as a society and elect to "do" things, I understand that not all of those things are going to be something I would personally want to spend my money on. There will be compromises and I will get something of what I want in the mix. Since we all live in the society we cant elect to "opt out" whenever we dont like this or that, change our mind, dont want to pay for a particular thing, etc. The "social contract" wouldnt work otherwise(see "Little Red Hen, Ant and the Grasshopper). Yes we are all individuals, but we are all one society as well.  We should share in that societal contract, proportionally. When I tithe at my church I dont argue with the 10% saying that its unfair, that just because I make more money doesnt mean I should pay in more than someone else makes. That would be absurd. To one person a "silver shekel" is a mere "widows mite". To another, a mite is a precious silver shekel.

You are one of the very few self-employed people I know who don't mind giving away the fruits of their productivity to the government.  You actually do write a check to the government(s) so you do have sensitivity to exactly what you are paying them.  Maybe you need to hang out with me a little more. []

I realize there is government infrastructure which must be paid for and I don't have a problem paying my share of that.  I honestly don't see though why it is one group of people should take on a greater burden to pay for those who earn less in our society.  Many in the upper tax brackets already do contribute wealth to the well-being of others by providing jobs.  

What many people don't seem to grasp is how absurdly large government has become on local, state, and federal levels.  Government is involved in many areas it has zero business being in and all it does is create more overhead for taxpayers.  One major reason I absolutely cannot vote for Obama is a promise of $1 Trillion in new spending and absolutely no plan to return us to the "surpluses" of the Clinton years.

Personally, I feel I am a better steward of my money than the government is, and I do a better job of picking which charities do the most good for mankind.  Government is a pathetic manager of charity.

[mrburns918]

quote:Originally posted by guido911

quote:Originally posted by mrburns918

I made over $92,000.00 per year. Anyone who makes more than that is rich to me. [}:)]

Actually here is a simple break down:

51% of Americans make $49,999.00
19% of Americans make $50,000 - $74,999
12% of Americans make $75,000 - $99,999
14% of Americans make $100,000- $199,999
3%  of Americans make $200,000 or above

What is "Rich" is a pointless argument. Majority of Americans make less than $75,000.00 a year. The median income is $43,318.00.

In 2002 the latest year of available data, the top 5 percent of taxpayers paid more than one-half (53.8 percent) of all individual income taxes, but reported roughly one-third (30.6 percent) of income. -US Treasury Department

HOWEVER...

Warren Buffett, the third-richest man in the world, has criticised the US tax system for allowing him to pay a lower rate than his secretary and his cleaner.

Speaking at a $4,600-a-seat fundraiser in New York for Senator Hillary Clinton, Mr Buffett, who is worth an estimated $52 billion (£26 billion), said: "The 400 of us [here] pay a lower part of our income in taxes than our receptionists do, or our cleaning ladies, for that matter. If you're in the luckiest 1 per cent of humanity, you owe it to the rest of humanity to think about the other 99 per cent."

Mr Buffett said that he was taxed at 17.7 per cent on the $46 million he made last year, without trying to avoid paying higher taxes, while his secretary, who earned $60,000, was taxed at 30 per cent. Mr Buffett told his audience, which included John Mack, the chairman of Morgan Stanley, and Alan Patricof, the founder of the US branch of Apax Partners, that US government policy had accentuated a disparity of wealth that hurt the economy by stifling opportunity and motivation. -Time Magazine

The fact is, the super wealthy do not pay their fair share of taxes.


Mr. Burns
Bob Barr for President

Answer me this. Do you think it is fair that  millions of people who comprise that 3% should pay more in taxes than America's median annual income? In other words, should these people pay more in taxes than the average family earns?

Not at all. I am for a fair share balance. The only way to fix this is to have a flat tax. I support flat tax and feel it's the only way to make it equal across the board. And, I also believe that along with the flat tax...

Churches should NOT be tax exempt
Business expense deductions become obsolete
Do away with all government grants that fund arts, agriculture, business, transportation, law, employment, etc. etc.
DOUBLE TAX any business who moves to another country for cheap labor. Not really but it would be pretty cool yet goes against my belief.
etc. etc.

So, hope this helps you understand where I am coming from. The point of my response was to show that the discussion of who is "rich" is ridiculous.

Mr. Burns

[Red Arrow]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

quote:Originally posted by Red Arrow

Originally posted by TheArtist

Originally posted by Red Arrow

Originally posted by TheArtist
When I tithe at my church I dont argue with the 10% saying that its unfair, that just because I make more money doesnt mean I should pay in more than someone else makes.

The sky is blue...Aaaand?  

On Jan 20th, I'll gather a few well armed friends (the government) and come to your house. You will forced to hire two cleaning persons (no sex discrimination please) to come in every day. Doesn't matter if there isn't enough cleaning to do. Maybe three persons for the yard work, twice a week.  Since I don't actually know you beyond this forum, I don't know what you may want to not do with your money or how much you actually can afford. The items above would be good for the local economy, hiring 5 people. We are going to tell you what to do with our (oops! your) money.

(Nothing personal is intended, just examples make the point.)

[we vs us]

Isn't that what we want Artist to do with his money?  Hire people?  Provide income to others?  This is what I'm constantly hearing from all the other fiscal cons on this board who warn me that higher taxes will mean the richies will stop hiring us and our economy will grind to a halt.

For all intents and purposes, Artist is filling his economic niche admirably.

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by Red Arrow

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

quote:Originally posted by Red Arrow

Originally posted by TheArtist

Originally posted by Red Arrow

Originally posted by TheArtist
When I tithe at my church I dont argue with the 10% saying that its unfair, that just because I make more money doesnt mean I should pay in more than someone else makes.

The sky is blue...Aaaand?  

On Jan 20th, I'll gather a few well armed friends (the government) and come to your house. You will forced to hire two cleaning persons (no sex discrimination please) to come in every day. Doesn't matter if there isn't enough cleaning to do. Maybe three persons for the yard work, twice a week.  Since I don't actually know you beyond this forum, I don't know what you may want to not do with your money or how much you actually can afford. The items above would be good for the local economy, hiring 5 people. We are going to tell you what to do with our (oops! your) money.

(Nothing personal is intended, just examples make the point.)

I still dont understand what your trying to say? Are you trying to say nobody should pay any taxes at all unless they want to?

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

"Answer me this. Do you think it is fair that millions of people who comprise that 3% should pay more in taxes than America's median annual income? In other words, should these people pay more in taxes than the average family earns?"

Absolutely. Why should it be otherwise? I am absolutely baffled that someone would think otherwise?

I probably pay more in taxes than some people earn. And wont mind paying more if I get more of what I want.

When we gather together as a society and elect to "do" things, I understand that not all of those things are going to be something I would personally want to spend my money on. There will be compromises and I will get something of what I want in the mix. Since we all live in the society we cant elect to "opt out" whenever we dont like this or that, change our mind, dont want to pay for a particular thing, etc. The "social contract" wouldnt work otherwise(see "Little Red Hen, Ant and the Grasshopper). Yes we are all individuals, but we are all one society as well.  We should share in that societal contract, proportionally. When I tithe at my church I dont argue with the 10% saying that its unfair, that just because I make more money doesnt mean I should pay in more than someone else makes. That would be absurd. To one person a "silver shekel" is a mere "widows mite". To another, a mite is a precious silver shekel.

You are one of the very few self-employed people I know who don't mind giving away the fruits of their productivity to the government.  You actually do write a check to the government(s) so you do have sensitivity to exactly what you are paying them.  Maybe you need to hang out with me a little more. []

I realize there is government infrastructure which must be paid for and I don't have a problem paying my share of that.  I honestly don't see though why it is one group of people should take on a greater burden to pay for those who earn less in our society.  Many in the upper tax brackets already do contribute wealth to the well-being of others by providing jobs.  

What many people don't seem to grasp is how absurdly large government has become on local, state, and federal levels.  Government is involved in many areas it has zero business being in and all it does is create more overhead for taxpayers.  One major reason I absolutely cannot vote for Obama is a promise of $1 Trillion in new spending and absolutely no plan to return us to the "surpluses" of the Clinton years.

Personally, I feel I am a better steward of my money than the government is, and I do a better job of picking which charities do the most good for mankind.  Government is a pathetic manager of charity.

I dont think, as you put it that...  "one group of people should take on a greater burden to pay for those who earn less in our society." I guess I am for more of a "flat tax" type deal.

Here is where I am coming from... When I was little and didnt know much about the world. I just supposed that everyone paid a certain percentage of tax on what they earned. I figured that the more money I made, obviously the more tax I would put in. That wouldnt deter me from makig more money. It wasnt a bad thing. It was just the way it was. If the tax was 20% and I made 1,000$ I would pay 200. If I made 100,000 I would pay in 2,000 and so forth. No big deal, no big fuss.

When its a percentage and its a percentage that we have agreed upon. If I can do perfectly fine putting in 200 and having 800 left over. It certainly shouldnt be any big deal to put in 2,000 and have 8,000 left over. Yea 2,000 is more, but I still got 8,000... and thats more too lol.  

Also, I dont consder taxes as something to just help the poor, or to act as a charity. They are for whatever we as a society choose to use them for. Arenas, parks, roads, bridges, dams, research, arts, public spaces and buildings, medical stuff, fire, police, NASA, military, enforce zoning, schools etc.  Some things may cater to the rich, some the middle class, some the poor, the elderly, the young, people who have kids, etc. But they are for things that we as a group have decided to join together and support. We also realize that everyone has to "buy in" for it to work and be fair, even though you may not use or like each and every item. We compromise, I get some of what I want, you get some of what you want etc. And the people in government are the ones we have decided to put in charge to make sure the things we want done, get done. If you dont like the way its done, try to change it, or go look around and choose what another group of people have done, how they have chosen to form their society, if they are doing it better, the way you think society should be done, go hang out with them and join their group.

You can say for instance that you dont want government to support the arts. But lets say the Federal government and State and local governments do get out of doing anything for the arts....

Then say I or someone else has an idea. We feel that our public buildings could use a little... artistry. We could do it on our own. Let donors buy some art or make the buildings a little more than "bland and only utilitarian". Or we could get together and have a vote. We could say, lets see if others think its a good idea to include a percentage of our taxes to go to adding art to our public spaces. To perhaps even create something greater than we likely could any other way. Perhaps lots of people do like the idea and vote for it.  Well, there you are, the government is back in the business of funding art. You may not think its right that the government support art and the arts... but it didnt just occur magically. Some group of people decided it was something they wanted and they/we or our elected officials decided to do those things. Even if you completely got rid of it now. Whats to keep someone from coming along again with that little idea, saying "hey lets vote on it" and the majority deciding they like it?

 
Isnt it supposed to be that everything the government does is what the society has asked it to do? And yes, we know that nobody, no government, no business, is going to be perfect and that we must always push for things to be better. And of course as times change, economies and situations change,,, what we decided to do before, must also change to meet the current needs, desires and realities.

Yea as a business owner I know exactly how much I pay in. So what, just because I can more readily see it doesnt mean it is, or should be any different for me than someone else. Just like when I buy something at the local furniture store for instance. We all pay the same percentage. And just because I may pay more in local sales taxes than some earn in a year, doesnt mean I think its somehow not fair or that I am gonna complain about unfairly helping out some poor person and their kids. I dont have kids, why should I pay to help some poor persons kids go to school? They should work harder and pay for a private school. Right? Or, I could think that I am danged lucky to be able to spend so much, that I earn so much, that it turns out I pay as much in sales taxes as someone may earn. Who the hell could complain about that!?

Pluuus... Its all relative.   I was at the store the other day and bought a little bauble for a bit of change. A 500$ Faberge egg. My friend who was with me had a heart attack. To me my 500$ would be like him spending 20$. Relatively speaking, no big deal. If a wealthy person and a poor person were to take the same percentage of their income and buy a house, one could afford a million dollar home, the other perhaps a basic 100,000 dollar home. To each the mortgage may feel about the same, relative, to their incomes. And the wealthy person doesnt have to buy the million dollar home, they can buy the 500,000 dollar home and still be living much higher on the hog compared to the poorer person in the 100,000 dollar home... and have even more money left over to do whatever they want with. They may get a better interest rate on the house, their car, the furniture they may buy if they buy on credit at all. Plus a gallon of gas to the wealthy person is practically free to them. Costs nothing relatively speaking. Same for a gallon of milk, bread, baby food, etc. Plus as I know well. Most wealthy people can get a lot of things wholesale while the average person buys retail.

[we vs us]

Well-played, Artist.  +1

[nathanm]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

Who the hell could complain about that!?    

People who believe that every bit of success they ever had was solely due to their hard work and people who don't do as well are left behind because they're lazy, they're sluts, or they're whatever else. It's not the roads, bridges, and other societal infrastructure that allows them to do what they do, it's just their own hard work.

(Yes, hard work is usually necessary, but you can work your donkey off for your entire life and never get ahead if circumstances aren't right)

People seem to fail to grasp that you've got to have a functioning society to have that chance in the first place. Unless, of course, you're living in the third world and you happen to be one of the dictator's friends, say, because you were born to a family that is friends with his (or her) family.

[TulsaFan-inTexas]

I disagree with several of his policies, but the guy does exude a LOT of confidence and has an air about him that makes you want to like him.

I'll not be voting for him as I'm a Libertarian, but it's hard not to watch him speak.

[pmcalk]

quote:Originally posted by mrburns918
Not at all. I am for a fair share balance. The only way to fix this is to have a flat tax. I support flat tax and feel it's the only way to make it equal across the board. And, I also believe that along with the flat tax...

Churches should NOT be tax exempt
Business expense deductions become obsolete
Do away with all government grants that fund arts, agriculture, business, transportation, law, employment, etc. etc.
DOUBLE TAX any business who moves to another country for cheap labor. Not really but it would be pretty cool yet goes against my belief.
etc. etc.

So, hope this helps you understand where I am coming from. The point of my response was to show that the discussion of who is "rich" is ridiculous.

Mr. Burns

Really?  Do away with business expense deductions?  How could a business possibly function if it was taxed, not on its net earnings, but on its entire revenue?  Business that see high sales revenue would suddenly become obsolete.

It makes my head explode when people who support "flat tax" claim that this will simplify the tax system.  The complicated part of paying taxes is not figuring out how much taxes you owe--just check the book.  The complicated portion is figuring out how much money you made.  This is where the wealthy--with their hired consultants--have the advantage, and why people like Warren Buffet are able to pay less taxes than his secretary.