Obama's Kids to Get Private Education

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Gaspar

Good for Obama!  

I think everyone should have the opportunity and choice to send their children to the best school they can afford, and with the state of the DC public school system, I would think far less of him if he chose to send them to a public school for PR reasons.

I'm liking him more every day.

I wonder if he would consider a voucher system to allow the rest of us to do the same?

Make enough money or grab off enough power and pay for private school yourself like the other parents. You want some sort of "special treatment"? You want the government to intercede in the process and equalize income and social opportunity? You some kind of socialist or something?[]

Vouchers are one of those seemingly "fair play" ideas (like private SS accounts) that sound good but are doomed because they are an attempt to change nature coupled with an unholy motive. Just the kind of thing most conservatives abhor. They ignore the reality of wealth and its love affair with privilege.

The real motive of vouchers is to destroy the public school system through budget starvation. Its promoters see religious schools as less challenging to their principles. It also helps private schools which never seem to be able to be profitable.

In short, a well run private school would not welcome a voucher system. A well run public school can produce similar results as a private.

[pmcalk]

You're absolutely right, WB.  Conservatives like to act as though private schools do better simply because they are private, not public.  But the truth is private schools do better generally than public for two reasons.  One is that parents who seek out private schools are parents who care about education, and therefore are going to have children who do better.  The other reason is that private schools don't have to take everyone, and they can expel anyone who doesn't meet up to their standards.  Its the same reason that schools like BTW & Carver do better.  But if you required private schools to take any kid--even those kids who had never seen a book--you can bet that their test scores overall would drop.  Seriously, there are kids that start kindergarten without knowing what their name is.  Try getting good test scores when you start with that.

And when you start getting into funding religious schools, I get very uncomfortable.  Sure, it may sound ok when its your local Catholic school, but what about the Muslim extremest school that teaches children that the US is the great infidel?  When you fund one religious school, you have to fund them all.

[guido911]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by Gaspar

Good for Obama!  

I think everyone should have the opportunity and choice to send their children to the best school they can afford, and with the state of the DC public school system, I would think far less of him if he chose to send them to a public school for PR reasons.

I'm liking him more every day.

I wonder if he would consider a voucher system to allow the rest of us to do the same?

Make enough money or grab off enough power and pay for private school yourself like the other parents. You want some sort of "special treatment"? You want the government to intercede in the process and equalize income and social opportunity? You some kind of socialist or something?[]

Vouchers are one of those seemingly "fair play" ideas (like private SS accounts) that sound good but are doomed because they are an attempt to change nature coupled with an unholy motive. Just the kind of thing most conservatives abhor. They ignore the reality of wealth and its love affair with privilege.

The real motive of vouchers is to destroy the public school system through budget starvation. Its promoters see religious schools as less challenging to their principles. It also helps private schools which never seem to be able to be profitable.

In short, a well run private school would not welcome a voucher system. A well run public school can produce similar results as a private.

What a load of horse crap. The purpose of vouchers is to allow parents, all parents, the opportunity to get their children out of failing public schools. Parents of children in th D.C. public school system are not exactly the privilged class.

As a parent with children in private schools (very limited religious), I can personally attest to their superiority over public schools. The regimen is more structured, there is a better teacher-student ratio, and private schools are performance driven.

As for this "fair play" issue, my question is why should I pay to educate someone else's kids?

[we vs us]

quote:Originally posted by guido911
As for this "fair play" issue, my question is why should I pay to educate someone else's kids?

It's that whole "provide for the common good" thing.  

Also, why should I pay to pave the road to your house?  

You and I both know, Guido, that that's a crap argument.

[guido911]

quote:Originally posted by we vs us

quote:Originally posted by guido911
As for this "fair play" issue, my question is why should I pay to educate someone else's kids?

Also, why should I pay to pave the road to your house?  

Because I pay to pave the road to your house. That's "common good".

What is not "common good" is paying taxes to fund other children's education and then paying exorbitant tuition for my children's private education because I want them to have the very best.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by guido911

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by Gaspar

Good for Obama!  


I'm liking him more every day.

I wonder if he would consider a voucher system to allow the rest of us to do the same?

Make enough money or grab off enough power and pay for private school yourself like the other parents. You want some sort of "special treatment"? You want the government to intercede in the process and equalize income and social opportunity? You some kind of socialist or something?[]

Vouchers are one of those seemingly "fair play" ideas (like private SS accounts) that sound good but are doomed because they are an attempt to change nature coupled with an unholy motive. Just the kind of thing most conservatives abhor. They ignore the reality of wealth and its love affair with privilege.

The real motive of vouchers is to destroy the public school system through budget starvation. Its promoters see religious schools as less challenging to their principles. It also helps private schools which never seem to be able to be profitable.

In short, a well run private school would not welcome a voucher system. A well run public school can produce similar results as a private.

What a load of horse crap. The purpose of vouchers is to allow parents, all parents, the opportunity to get their children out of failing public schools. Parents of children in th D.C. public school system are not exactly the privilged class.

As a parent with children in private schools (very limited religious), I can personally attest to their superiority over public schools. The regimen is more structured, there is a better teacher-student ratio, and private schools are performance driven.

^Now that's some fine quality horse crap Guido.

I'll take my public schools, Mayo, Eisenhower, Lee, Elliot, Carver, BTW over yours any day for cost effectiveness. They are structured (though that is highly overated imo), their feedstock is high (prosperous middle to upper class) and they use innovative teaching techniques. They have motivated teachers who match or exceed what is available privately, judging by scholarships and college test scores. Maybe not to the extent of Holland Hall but like I said, well run public schools are comparable to well run private ones. The most important key to success for either of these systems is the quality of the feedstock and the motivation of the teachers.

So, offer those students from underperforming schools a voucher to your religious private school, then sit back and watch as tuition creeps up. Watch as the newer students are separated both socially and intellectually. Watch as the public school system is recreated before your very eyes! Performance as evaluated by testing will start to drop and the more wealthy will pull their kids and will pay more to get them into more prestigious, selective private schools.

The motivations for vouchers are anything but fairness, morality or the common good. They are business and religion. Privatizing public functions is a mantra for the Gingrich era Reaganistas.

[Red Arrow]

quote:Originally posted by guido911

As for this "fair play" issue, my question is why should I pay to educate someone else's kids?

You pay to educate someone else's kids so they have a chance to be a productive member of our society.  They can become a taxpayer rather than a tax drain.  The fact that you choose and are able to send your kids to private school is irrelevant.

Class size: Class size from 1st grade to Senior at High School was about 30 when/where I grew up. It was a mixed Blue collar/ white collar area. There were few (not none) discipline problems because the parents cared about their kids and got involved in the kids' education.  As I remember, about half of my graduating class (approx. 400 graduated) at least started college.  I don't know how to transfer that interest to today's parents.

[cannon_fodder]

FWIW, I went to private schools for preschools, 1-12th grade and graduate school.  Public school for K and for undergrad.  My son went to private schools for P&K then we transferred to public schools because we felt our district would do as good a job as the private school he was enrolled in.  I am very please and outspoken about our satisfaction with TPS.

Also, I am not religious in the slightest.  Many people that want vouchers actually want money from the government to fund religion in various ways (get 'em while they're young!).  That they won't just admit this is to their discredit (hidden goals in religious politics are somewhat hypocritical).

However, I should point out the religious (Catholic) education I received encouraged free thought, taught science, and allowed discussion of religious themes (you could ask why). At the time it was, of course, a draconian hell hole that was out to indoctrinate us all... but in hindsight my Catholic schools were strict but fair, religious by open minded.

So... with that context and background...

quote:Originally posted by nathanm

The real purpose of them is to starve the public schools of money so as to lead us further down the road of a permanent underclass.

That basic sentiment is echoed over and over in this thread.  The bourgeoisie is plotting to keep down the proletariat masses.  To arms, to arms!

If you honesty believe a secret group meets and tries to decide the best way to keep the people down, then you should be taking up arms against them.  Not rambling about it on the internet. As is usually the case, instead of a grand conspiracy to keep someone down the truth is much simpler.

If I choose to pay for my sons education I am removing one pupil from the public charge.  I am saving the public money by doing so.  I will likely pay less for my child to go to a private school than it would cost the state and may get MORE for less.  I will also pay to help send your child to public schools (where we too often pay more for less).  People who pay twice for schools while saving the educational system money think that is not fair.

A well structure voucher system would raise the per pupil funds available to the public school system.  If the cost per pupil is $6,000, cut a voucher for half that amount.  The school system gains a net $3,000 to distribute to the remaining pupils.

Worried about "Religious Schools" being bible schools that also sometimes teach kids how to write?  Then have a standardized test minimum score in order to be eligible for vouchers (which should include science).  If the school fails to perform academically, then pupils attending are not eligible for vouchers as they are not utilizing state funds for education effectively.

Frankly, I agree with this fear - a friends kid goes to a private school in Tulsa and was reading from the book "American History for Christians."  Very interesting stuff in there... I had no idea most of the founders were devote Christians (neither did they for that matter, why do religious people need to claim great men were religious to validate their beliefs?).  Nor did I realize we frequently fight wars to uphold Christ's principles etc. etc. etc.

So yeah, I have my concerns.  Particularly in fundamentalist territory that the education will be merely religious indoctrination.   But if it is education first and foremost and a system could be setup whereby vouchers are given that enable people to choose a school, leave more money with the public school and at the same time facilitate competition for students and wise use of educational dollars... wouldn't that be a good thing?
- - -

As a side note, public education actually is a product of the bourgeoisie plotting to take over our nation.  The reason public schools really took off was to warehouse children so their parents could work in the factories.  Now their demise is claimed to be a plot by the bourgeoisie.  Damned if you do...

And finally, we spend more per pupil (inflation adjusted) than we ever have.  Have our results improved?  I think not.  It isn't the funding that matters.

Clearly a base line of funding is required, but if parents at home don't care, teachers don't care, and kids are allowed to just pass on through.  The results are predictable.  Throw as much money as you want. Guild the lockers.  It won't matter.

[waterboy]

Like my cynical old Nam buddy used to say, "When 'ifs' and 'buts" are candy and nuts, we'll all be happy at Christmas"!

[guido911]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by guido911

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by Gaspar

Good for Obama!  


I'm liking him more every day.

I wonder if he would consider a voucher system to allow the rest of us to do the same?

Make enough money or grab off enough power and pay for private school yourself like the other parents. You want some sort of "special treatment"? You want the government to intercede in the process and equalize income and social opportunity? You some kind of socialist or something?[]

Vouchers are one of those seemingly "fair play" ideas (like private SS accounts) that sound good but are doomed because they are an attempt to change nature coupled with an unholy motive. Just the kind of thing most conservatives abhor. They ignore the reality of wealth and its love affair with privilege.

The real motive of vouchers is to destroy the public school system through budget starvation. Its promoters see religious schools as less challenging to their principles. It also helps private schools which never seem to be able to be profitable.

In short, a well run private school would not welcome a voucher system. A well run public school can produce similar results as a private.

What a load of horse crap. The purpose of vouchers is to allow parents, all parents, the opportunity to get their children out of failing public schools. Parents of children in th D.C. public school system are not exactly the privilged class.

As a parent with children in private schools (very limited religious), I can personally attest to their superiority over public schools. The regimen is more structured, there is a better teacher-student ratio, and private schools are performance driven.

^Now that's some fine quality horse crap Guido.

I'll take my public schools, Mayo, Eisenhower, Lee, Elliot, Carver, BTW over yours any day for cost effectiveness. They are structured (though that is highly overated imo), their feedstock is high (prosperous middle to upper class) and they use innovative teaching techniques. They have motivated teachers who match or exceed what is available privately, judging by scholarships and college test scores. Maybe not to the extent of Holland Hall but like I said, well run public schools are comparable to well run private ones. The most important key to success for either of these systems is the quality of the feedstock and the motivation of the teachers.

So, offer those students from underperforming schools a voucher to your religious private school, then sit back and watch as tuition creeps up. Watch as the newer students are separated both socially and intellectually. Watch as the public school system is recreated before your very eyes! Performance as evaluated by testing will start to drop and the more wealthy will pull their kids and will pay more to get them into more prestigious, selective private schools.

The motivations for vouchers are anything but fairness, morality or the common good. They are business and religion. Privatizing public functions is a mantra for the Gingrich era Reaganistas.

When I said "limited religious" I meant it. As an FYI, the school I am referring to is Holland Hall. There are also several other fine, non-religious private schools in Tulsa: Riverfield and University School.

"Cost effectiveness" is your standard for guaging the quality of a child's education. wOW.

[guido911]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

My son went to private schools for P&K then we transferred to public schools because we felt our district would do as good a job as the private school he was enrolled in.  I am very please and outspoken about our satisfaction with TPS.

Are you kidding? A decent public school in midtown? The hell you say. []

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by guido911

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by guido911

Originally posted by waterboy

Originally posted by Gaspar

In short, a well run private school would not welcome a voucher system. A well run public school can produce similar results as a private.

"Cost effectiveness" is your standard for guaging the quality of a child's education. wOW.

No where did I say that. Standards for quality are not related to cost of education as has been pointed out here. After certain basic overhead costs(building, equipment, teachers, administration) are established, the amount of money thrown at educating a student reaches a point of diminishing returns. My point is that considering the quantity and quality of students served, public schools are more cost effective.

If you want to match the cost of 4 years of high school for your kids at BTW vs 4 years at Holland Hall you would find that both will prepare them for college. Both schools produce students who will ace their ACT's. BTW does it cheaper and exposes more students from lower income demos.

Its YOUR contribution as parents that makes the difference.

[RecycleMichael]

I are a graduate of public schools.

So there.

[cannon_fodder]

quote:"Cost effectiveness" is your standard for [gauging] the quality of a child's education. wOW.

Hell yes.

To pretend that isn't a standard involved is simply a lie.  Of course cost has something to do with hit.  If he can get a 27 on his ACT with public education, or a 28 spending $70,000 on 12 years of private education... the 27 will be just fine.  To pretend anything else is just not accurate.

Likewise, if Tulsa spent 50% the national average on education and performed accordingly, so be it.  But if we spend near the average and under perform I am more upset.  If we overspent and still under performed I'd be even more upset.  Or in each instance my angst would at very least be directed differently.  

As in all endeavors, public and private, the goal should be get to the most bang for your back.  At a certain funding level you are wasting money because the job can not be done with the resources provided.  At the other end, you are also wasting money because the return on investment is reduced.

Cost effectiveness is not my standard, but it is part of the equation.

[USRufnex]

Once again Guido, you prove yourself a fool...

I'd consider Obama a hypocrit if he DIDN'T send his kids to a private school in DC... after all, he sent his kids to Chicago Lab School, which costs about $20k per year per kid to attend.....

I consider people like Guido911 and Cannon Fodder to be hypocrits every time they suggest the NEA is responsible for all that is wrong in public schools and how vouchers are going to be some magical panacea that will force public schools to reform themselves... as if teachers and their unions were part of some horrible bureaucracy and have little interest in educating students....

LIE.

I believe in capitalism.... if you have the money to send your kids to private schools, feel free, it's your right as an American...

I worry about Obama from the opposite end of the spectrum when it comes to support for public education....

Chicago School Days
Obama's lackluster record on education.
By Alexander RussoPosted Wednesday, April 2, 2008, at 3:05 PM ET
http://www.slate.com/id/2188010/

http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11575&SearchTerms=Englewood,high,school

Yeah, it's all about "accountability" -- except that when funding/success/failure are measured  solely on test scores above all other standards, teachers are no longer accountable to their own students' successes..... they're slaves to a system of pseudo-accountability that rewards quick fixes and punishes teachers who are more interested in teaching their students "critical thinking" and "life skills" over unattainable average test scores...

[!]