Obama birth certificate again

[rwarn17588]

quote:Originally posted by tim huntzinger

 The COBL is not proof.

A Certificate of Live Birth from a state is a legally accepted document in every corner you can name. It's proof.

You don't think everyone's going to demand an original birth certificate and subject them to possible loss, do you? That's why certificates are issued.

[cannon_fodder]

The joke is an "original birth certificate" is not an acceptable form of ID.  You can not use it to to get back in the Country from Canada or Mexico, to get a passport, to prove your age, or anything else.  The hospital issued document is merely to memorialize the event, a keep sake.

The state issues birth certificate is the PROOF of birth in the United States, period.  From coast to coast, all states, all agencies, bars, casino's you name it. The "original" is issued by a nurse is not the official copy.

Furthermore, answer the questions that I posed oh grand master of the Obama inquisition.  I ask you for the THIRD time.

Finally, the Constitution says natural born citizen.  Obama has proved he is a natural born citizen by the best evidence available.

DO YOU REALLY NOT UNDERSTAND or are you daft?

[Gaspar]

Crap!
Now I am starting to question my own citizenship.

All I have to prove that I'm a citizen is this silly birth certificate, passport, and the somewhat dubious word of my parents and the doctor that delivered me 39 years ago.

For all I know, I could be a North Korean or Iranian, or worse yet. . . I could actually be a dog or a small rodent.  How can I be sure of my species?  

All I have is silly documentation to prove that I am who I am.

What a dilemma.

[tim huntzinger]

FODDER:
That doesn't give you a clue of where he was born? Furthermore, as I also pointed our earlier... if he was born in Pakistan, India, or China to an American Citizen mother he would still be a natural born American Citizen by definition.

ME:
His parents (sperm donor and his US-hating mom) said he was an Indonesian citizen. HERE At that time, then, he was an Indonesian citizen, which did not allow for dual citizenship of minors HERE.  The COBL merely shows that an infant was presented and his guardians told the DHS or whatever where and when he was born.


FODDER:
If McCain won you'd be giving the Canal zone argument.  You simple want there to be some grand conspiratorial injustice.  Sorry, usually there is not one.

ME:
Talk about lack of evidence and jumping to conclusions! You know me sooooo well! Ha ha!


FODDER:
Go find an Indonesian birth certificate or passport... otherwise the best evidence rule says I win. Or jump up and down with your "alternative" solutions and whine some more without any evidence.

ME:
[ibid]


FODDER:
And I ask you again... you are the grand dragon of the Obama inquisition.  What does he have to provide you, other than a litany of government issued documents, to prove he is a natural born US citizen?

ME:
The birth certificate showing his happy @$$ was slapped by a doctor in the great state of Hawaii.


FODDER:
1. And if he is unable to provide those documents what would you do?  2. Depose an elected president who has proven he is a US Citizen and not not disprove he ever held an Indonesian passport?

ME:
1. Encourage Arnold Schwarzenegger to run for POTUS.
2. He has not proven he is a citizen.  His parents said he was Indonesian.  Ask him why his commie, USA hating, globe-trotting mom wanted him raised Islamic.


FODDER:
You are putting the burden of proof on Obama to disprove your conspiracy theory.  Are you at all familiar with Russell's teapot?  The burden of proof is on the one proposing a new idea, not the one supporting the proposition supported by the current best evidence.
[/quote]

ME:
Blame the Constitution.  It set up the criteria without defining how disputes would be settled. The Constitution needs to amended.

[cannon_fodder]

You are either daft or an donkey.  Simple as that.

1) The hospital issued certificate is meaningless.

2) He has provided a state issued certificate.

3) If he was born to a US mother over seas and claimed US citizenship he is a natural born citizen anyway.

4) You have no proof to the contrary.

5) Your conspiracy has him believing that he is a natural born citizen (clearly he doesn't know), would you have him deposed if he is unable to prove to your satisfaction that he is a natural citizen even if you can find no evidence to the contrary?

6) You keep crying that you are the defender of the Constitution while it is clear you are defending your own ideals.  If you want to stand up for your point of view, don't wuss out and pretend to stand for something else.  

The constitutional requirement for Obama being a natural born citizen have been met by the production of a valid U.S. Birth Certificate, nothing else is required.  If you come up with proof sometime in the next 4 years let me know, until then you are on a conspiracy witch hunt.  Whine and cry all you want, I've wasted enough time on you.

Here is the fact:  A State Issued Certificate of live birth is prima facia evidence of being a natural born US Citizen. You can insist over and over and over to the contrary, but your position is very clear wrong:

Q: What do I need to prove citizenship?
A: Certified birth certificate issued by the city, county or state.
US State Department

Na-uh, doesn't count!  The government doesn't care about government documents... they little foot prints on card board.  Enjoy being proven wrong.

[Ed W]

When dealing with the tin foil hat brigade, remember this:

Facts, however interesting, are irrelevant.

[tim huntzinger]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

You are either daft or an donkey.  Simple as that.

1) The hospital issued certificate is meaningless.

2) He has provided a state issued certificate.

3) If he was born to a US mother over seas and claimed US citizenship he is a natural born citizen anyway.

4) You have no proof to the contrary.

5) Your conspiracy has him believing that he is a natural born citizen (clearly he doesn't know), would you have him deposed if he is unable to prove to your satisfaction that he is a natural citizen even if you can find no evidence to the contrary?

6) You keep crying that you are the defender of the Constitution while it is clear you are defending your own ideals.  If you want to stand up for your point of view, don't wuss out and pretend to stand for something else.  

The constitutional requirement for Obama being a natural born citizen have been met by the production of a valid U.S. Birth Certificate, nothing else is required.  If you come up with proof sometime in the next 4 years let me know, until then you are on a conspiracy witch hunt.  Whine and cry all you want, I've wasted enough time on you.

Here is the fact:  A State Issued Certificate of live birth is prima facia evidence of being a natural born US Citizen. You can insist over and over and over to the contrary, but your position is very clear wrong:

Q: What do I need to prove citizenship?
A: Certified birth certificate issued by the city, county or state.
US State Department

Na-uh, doesn't count!  The government doesn't care about government documents... they little foot prints on card board.  Enjoy being proven wrong.

No sweat off my nose. I jumped in to the fray here because I believe he was born in Kenya - as his grandmum said he was; admittedly, it is an interesting argument without any action line. Strictly for argument sake so friggin relax, dudes.  HEAR ME? FRIGGIN RELAX!!

[cannon_fodder]

And I would appreciate the argument if it was cogent.  Unfortunately, the best evidence says otherwise.  The manner in which you expressed it and refused to acknowledge evidence to the contrary is what led to the frustration on my part.

Nonetheless, interesting point and duly noted.

[guido911]

On way or the other this matter will apparently be over tomorrow as the Supremes take it up:

http://www.newsday.com/news/politics/chi-obama-birth-certificatedec04,0,3247305.story

CF: Not to nitpick, but simply because a birth certificate might be "prima facie evidence" of natural citizenship, it does not exclude the opportunity for a person opposing that evidence to provide contradictory evidence. Indeed, Black's Law Dictionary (8th ed. 2004) defines prima facie evidence as "[e]vidence that will establish a fact or sustain a judgment unless contradictory evidence is produced."  Evidence such as that alleged statement by Obama's grandmother or that the certificate is a forgery I believe would qualify as contradictory evidence.

Oh, and as I have stated before in this thread and elsewhere, I think this birth issue is nonsense.

[cannon_fodder]

Perfectly agreed Guido... but no such evidence has been provided.  The she said this or that or he traveled here or there is no better evidence of anything.  And, from a populist perspective, this won't be touched anyway.

Even if an Indonesian passport was provided tomorrow, could you imagine the Supreme Court ousting a duly elected president who had no idea of this issue?  You thought Gore was a tough decision.  Sheesh!  (Not that they should ignore the evidence if it is presented, just that they will weasel out of it guaranteed EVEN IF shown 99%).

[rwarn17588]

quote:Originally posted by guido911

On way or the other this matter will apparently be over tomorrow as the Supremes take it up:

http://www.newsday.com/news/politics/chi-obama-birth-certificatedec04,0,3247305.story

CF: Not to nitpick, but simply because a birth certificate might be "prima facie evidence" of natural citizenship, it does not exclude the opportunity for a person opposing that evidence to provide contradictory evidence. Indeed, Black's Law Dictionary (8th ed. 2004) defines prima facie evidence as "[e]vidence that will establish a fact or sustain a judgment unless contradictory evidence is produced."  Evidence such as that alleged statement by Obama's grandmother or that the certificate is a forgery I believe would qualify as contradictory evidence.

Oh, and as I have stated before in this thread and elsewhere, I think this birth issue is nonsense.

I'd sure like to see what this contradictory evidence would be. The case for forgery is very unlikely, and I heard the allegation by the grandmother is extremely dubious (via phone, with a bad connection, to an old woman who might have confused memories).

[RecycleMichael]

I just don't think Obama has a birth certificate. I think he is a robot.

If you add a T to his name and spell it backwards, it is "Am a Bot."

I want some real proof that he is human. That ain't too much to ask.

[guido911]

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

quote:Originally posted by guido911

On way or the other this matter will apparently be over tomorrow as the Supremes take it up:

http://www.newsday.com/news/politics/chi-obama-birth-certificatedec04,0,3247305.story

CF: Not to nitpick, but simply because a birth certificate might be "prima facie evidence" of natural citizenship, it does not exclude the opportunity for a person opposing that evidence to provide contradictory evidence. Indeed, Black's Law Dictionary (8th ed. 2004) defines prima facie evidence as "[e]vidence that will establish a fact or sustain a judgment unless contradictory evidence is produced."  Evidence such as that alleged statement by Obama's grandmother or that the certificate is a forgery I believe would qualify as contradictory evidence.

Oh, and as I have stated before in this thread and elsewhere, I think this birth issue is nonsense.

I'd sure like to see what this contradictory evidence would be. The case for forgery is very unlikely, and I heard the allegation by the grandmother is extremely dubious (via phone, with a bad connection, to an old woman who might have confused memories).

For you edification, here is something that ran in the Chi Trib:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/media/acrobat/2008-12/43669993.pdf

Take it for whatever its worth

[guido911]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Perfectly agreed Guido... but no such evidence has been provided.  The she said this or that or he traveled here or there is no better evidence of anything.  And, from a populist perspective, this won't be touched anyway.

Even if an Indonesian passport was provided tomorrow, could you imagine the Supreme Court ousting a duly elected president who had no idea of this issue?  You thought Gore was a tough decision.  Sheesh!  (Not that they should ignore the evidence if it is presented, just that they will weasel out of it guaranteed EVEN IF shown 99%).

I think you know the reason I posted what I did was the impression you might have left was that prima facie evidence could not be rebutted. As for this "evidence", it's crap.

[azbadpuppy]

quote:Originally posted by guido911

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

quote:Originally posted by guido911

On way or the other this matter will apparently be over tomorrow as the Supremes take it up:

http://www.newsday.com/news/politics/chi-obama-birth-certificatedec04,0,3247305.story

CF: Not to nitpick, but simply because a birth certificate might be "prima facie evidence" of natural citizenship, it does not exclude the opportunity for a person opposing that evidence to provide contradictory evidence. Indeed, Black's Law Dictionary (8th ed. 2004) defines prima facie evidence as "[e]vidence that will establish a fact or sustain a judgment unless contradictory evidence is produced."  Evidence such as that alleged statement by Obama's grandmother or that the certificate is a forgery I believe would qualify as contradictory evidence.

Oh, and as I have stated before in this thread and elsewhere, I think this birth issue is nonsense.

I'd sure like to see what this contradictory evidence would be. The case for forgery is very unlikely, and I heard the allegation by the grandmother is extremely dubious (via phone, with a bad connection, to an old woman who might have confused memories).

For you edification, here is something that ran in the Chi Trib:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/media/acrobat/2008-12/43669993.pdf

Take it for whatever its worth

That is a paid advertisement taken out by an anti-tax activist group called 'We the People Foundation'. They are the ones who run around in the creepy 'V for Vendetta' masks. Yeah, they're credible.

Here is the Chicago Tribune's response to the full page ad:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/obama/chi-obama-ad-03-dec03,0,3124041.story