Ballpark's Financing Arranged

[sgrizzle]

quote:Originally posted by Oil Capital

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

1. Yes , I'm sure AA and AAA baseball stadium are hugely different. The differences in stadium and rules are so vast that I can find.. well none. None whatsoever.
2. As far as premium seating, from the looks of the columbus stadium I believe they actually have less as there is only one floor above the risers. They also have no right-outfield seating at all as there is a road there. (other than the weird wall they borrowed from "Laugh-in")

There is also no attention being paid for soccer capability in the Ohio design due to the fact they have an MLS stadium in the same city.

Read more carefully, I already granted you that there may be no AAA/AA distinction.

And, again, "Do you research stuff or just make it up?"  Post again when you have some actual facts supporting your assumptions that our stadium will have more premium seating and be more capable of hosting soccer, and why and by how much soccer capability would raise the costs of construction.

I am basing that on the fact that public diagrams have shown a soccer layout in our stadium. As stated before I am basing the premium seating statement based on the fact the columbus stadium is shorter.

Old image showing the soccer field:

[Oil Capital]

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

quote:Originally posted by Oil Capital

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

1. Yes , I'm sure AA and AAA baseball stadium are hugely different. The differences in stadium and rules are so vast that I can find.. well none. None whatsoever.
2. As far as premium seating, from the looks of the columbus stadium I believe they actually have less as there is only one floor above the risers. They also have no right-outfield seating at all as there is a road there. (other than the weird wall they borrowed from "Laugh-in")

There is also no attention being paid for soccer capability in the Ohio design due to the fact they have an MLS stadium in the same city.

Read more carefully, I already granted you that there may be no AAA/AA distinction.

And, again, "Do you research stuff or just make it up?"  Post again when you have some actual facts supporting your assumptions that our stadium will have more premium seating and be more capable of hosting soccer, and why and by how much soccer capability would raise the costs of construction.

I am basing that on the fact that public diagrams have shown a soccer layout in our stadium. As stated before I am basing the premium seating statement based on the fact the columbus stadium is shorter.

Old image showing the soccer field:

LOL

And the reason you couldn't draw a soccer pitch on the Columbus ballpark's outfield is...??

And the added construction costs of the ability to draw a soccer pitch on the ballpark's field is...  Here let me do the math for you.  ZERO.

Again, save your assumptions and try doing some fact-finding (rather than just making stuff up), I'm all eyes.

[sgrizzle]

quote:Originally posted by Oil Capital


LOL

And the reason you couldn't draw a soccer pitch on the Columbus ballpark's outfield is...??

And the added construction costs of the ability to draw a soccer pitch on the ballpark's field is...  Here let me do the math for you.  ZERO.

Again, save your assumptions and try doing some fact-finding (rather than just making stuff up), I'm all eyes.

The Tulsa field has a right outfield and left outfield roughly squared off to better accommodate soccer. Columbus's setup is not like that.

Name something I made up. Find a lie on this thread. Oh wait, here it is:

quote:Originally posted by Oil Capital


I suppose there MIGHT be a good reason the construction of our new ballpark is substantially higher than any other minor league park ever built (and, yes, that is accounting for inflation)...

[Oil Capital]

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

quote:Originally posted by Oil Capital


LOL

And the reason you couldn't draw a soccer pitch on the Columbus ballpark's outfield is...??

And the added construction costs of the ability to draw a soccer pitch on the ballpark's field is...  Here let me do the math for you.  ZERO.

Again, save your assumptions and try doing some fact-finding (rather than just making stuff up), I'm all eyes.

The Tulsa field has a right outfield and left outfield roughly squared off to better accommodate soccer. Columbus's setup is not like that.

Name something I made up. Find a lie on this thread. Oh wait, here it is:

quote:Originally posted by Oil Capital


I suppose there MIGHT be a good reason the construction of our new ballpark is substantially higher than any other minor league park ever built (and, yes, that is accounting for inflation)...

LOL  So you think the wider outfield (which, so far as we know is only something you have made up, since, as usual, you have provided us with exactly zero evidence) accounts for our 33% per seat higher construction cost?  

Now, now...  How, exactly, was my first post a lie or made up?  What in that post is not true?   Facts that are contrary to the way you want them to be are not lies.  You have presented nothing, NOTHING remotely showing my post to be a lie or untrue.  Go to Bates' post and follow his links, if you can stand that many facts.  You will see costs for construction of the most comparable ballparks:  AA parks of similar size and in this part of the country.

You, on the other hand have "made stuff up" (I don't think I ever used the word "lie.") by assuming that the Tulsa park will have more premium seating and assuming both that the Columbus park could not handle a soccer pitch and that the capability of handling a soccer pitch adds significant (or ANY) costs to the construction of the project.

[RecycleMichael]

Yes. Columbus, Ohio added parking lots and it ran up their cost. They built their stadium out at the intersection of two highways on the outside of town. Are you so upset with the cost of this stadium because they are not building parking lots?

Driller Park is going to have lots of other features that most parks do not have. They include baseball specific items like underground batting cages and non-baseball items like infrastructure for other events like soccer and concerts.

Overall, the costs seem very much in-line with other recent stadiums yet you keep complaining about the price.

Columbus built their park with sales tax dollars. The new Driller Park is being financed with $30 million in private dollars and $5 million in rent from the team. The only public dollars are $1 million a year from downtown property owners.

Which way would you rather have?

[sgrizzle]

OC: Tulsa's stadium is by far the most expensive ever built.
SG: Tulsa's cost $39M while Columbus is spending $55M, that makes ours $16M cheaper.
OC: You don't have any facts to disprove my point.


??

[Oil Capital]

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

OC: Tulsa's stadium is by far the most expensive ever built.
SG: Tulsa's cost $39M while Columbus is spending $55M, that makes ours $16M cheaper.
OC: You don't have any facts to disprove my point.


??

Wow, you get more dishonest with every post.  Try including the context of my post about Tulsa's stadium being the most expensive minor league stadium ever built.  TAKING INTO ACCOUNT THEIR SIZES.

[Oil Capital]

quote:Originally posted by RecycleMichael

Yes. Columbus, Ohio added parking lots and it ran up their cost. They built their stadium out at the intersection of two highways on the outside of town. Are you so upset with the cost of this stadium because they are not building parking lots?

Driller Park is going to have lots of other features that most parks do not have. They include baseball specific items like underground batting cages and non-baseball items like infrastructure for other events like soccer and concerts.

Overall, the costs seem very much in-line with other recent stadiums yet you keep complaining about the price.

Columbus built their park with sales tax dollars. The new Driller Park is being financed with $30 million in private dollars and $5 million in rent from the team. The only public dollars are $1 million a year from downtown property owners.

Which way would you rather have?

Try to focus, man.  You were discussing the Springdale park, not Columbus.  You repeatedly posted the Springdale park's $40+ cost as being comparable to Tulsa's $40 Million cost, when your own post told us it was not a comparable number (because Springdale's $40 Million includes parking lots (and perhaps some other development) while Tulsa's is strictly stadium construction.  And, anybody with a fifth-grade reading comprehension can see that my concern is not that we are not getting parking lots.  Obviously, my concern is that we are overpaying for the stadium we are getting.  

There are red flags all over the place with this project, but the kool-aid drinkers want to wish them away.

The second paragraph, you finally address my initial post, where I surmised that there might be a reason for the higher costs.  At least you are for the moment implicitly admitting that Tulsa's park is costing more than other similarly-situated ballparks.  But, underground batting cages??  And I question how much extra is being spent on making the ballpark capable of hosting concerts and soccer games, especially when compared to other stadiums.  Most, if not all, stadiums are built with the idea of hosting an occasional concert.  What extra infrastructure does that really require?  Likewise, what extra infrastructure is required to host a soccer game?

As to your third paragraph, that is just plain false.  The costs of this stadium are not "very much in-line with other recent stadiums."  Repeating your preferred answer over and over does not make it so.  Again, go look at Bates' research on the topic.

As to your final two paragraphs, I am glad this is not being financed with sales taxes, but that is clearly a different topic altogether.  Just because it's not financed with sales taxes, are just supposed to accept anything they do?

[nathanm]

quote:Originally posted by Oil Capital

quote:Originally posted by RecycleMichael

Yes. Columbus, Ohio added parking lots and it ran up their cost. They built their stadium out at the intersection of two highways on the outside of town. Are you so upset with the cost of this stadium because they are not building parking lots?

Driller Park is going to have lots of other features that most parks do not have. They include baseball specific items like underground batting cages and non-baseball items like infrastructure for other events like soccer and concerts.

Overall, the costs seem very much in-line with other recent stadiums yet you keep complaining about the price.

Columbus built their park with sales tax dollars. The new Driller Park is being financed with $30 million in private dollars and $5 million in rent from the team. The only public dollars are $1 million a year from downtown property owners.

Which way would you rather have?

Try to focus, man.  You were discussing the Springdale park, not Columbus.  You repeatedly posted the Springdale park's $40+ cost as being comparable to Tulsa's $40 Million cost, when your own post told us it was not a comparable number (because Springdale's $40 Million includes parking lots (and perhaps some other development) while Tulsa's is strictly stadium construction.  And, anybody with a fifth-grade reading comprehension can see that my concern is not that we are not getting parking lots.  Obviously, my concern is that we are overpaying for the stadium we are getting.  

There are red flags all over the place with this project, but the kool-aid drinkers want to wish them away.

The second paragraph, you finally address my initial post, where I surmised that there might be a reason for the higher costs.  At least you are for the moment implicitly admitting that Tulsa's park is costing more than other similarly-situated ballparks.  But, underground batting cages??  And I question how much extra is being spent on making the ballpark capable of hosting concerts and soccer games, especially when compared to other stadiums.  Most, if not all, stadiums are built with the idea of hosting an occasional concert.  What extra infrastructure does that really require?  Likewise, what extra infrastructure is required to host a soccer game?

As to your third paragraph, that is just plain false.  The costs of this stadium are not "very much in-line with other recent stadiums."  Repeating your preferred answer over and over does not make it so.  Again, go look at Bates' research on the topic.

As to your final two paragraphs, I am glad this is not being financed with sales taxes, but that is clearly a different topic altogether.  Just because it's not financed with sales taxes, are just supposed to accept anything they do?

Springdale's stadium is useful only for baseball, and doesn't have some of the features talked about for the new Drillers stadium. Obviously it's going to be less expensive.

Add to that the decreased expense in building anything on the edge of town rather than in a downtown core, Drillers stadium is in line with others on construction cost.

And that's not even counting the significant inflation in the cost of materials since Arvest Ballpark was built.

[RecycleMichael]

Sorry, Oil Capitol. I fail to see your argument.

You say that "we" are paying too much, yet, more than half the cost is being donated. Please explain how much of "your" personal money is being spent to build this ballpark.

It seems to me that Tulsa is getting a $40 million ballpark for the low, low price of $1 million a year for 25 years. Again, that $1 million is being paid for by the owners of property within the three miles of downtown through higher property taxes. My east Tulsa property taxes won't change at all.

You keep trying to find fault and quote a story written by another blogger that is now dated and only covered nearby parks. Every construction job is different and this one has unique aspects.

I ask you again, why are you obsessed with the costs and won't comment on the financing? Why do you think everybody who disagrees with you is a kool-aid drinker? Your obsession on this issue disturbs me.

[Rico]

Gentlemen Please..............

The cost of the stadium is sorta a moot point..

We get the "return on the investment."

Sorta like the BOK.

Maybe... the "Stadium" is the return on the BOK investment.

Maybe there is a fifth or sixth leg of the chair that will be the return on the "Stadium".?

Be positive.

I'm positive I will be able to afford a Hot Dog at the sure to be built Quik Trip near the "Stadium"..

In any event... The trickling is still underway. We have to be patient for it to trickle down.

[TheArtist]

Wouldnt the design, quality, materials etc. have an impact on the cost? I dont see how anyone can compare or complain about the cost until those things are known. I would rather have high quality, nice design, good materials etc. and it cost more, than something cheap and crappy just so its in line with what others spent. Until we know more about just what we are getting, its a bit premature to complain.

Hopefully we will get some more details at the time of the ground breaking.

[Oil Capital]

quote:Originally posted by nathanm

quote:Originally posted by Oil Capital

quote:Originally posted by RecycleMichael

Yes. Columbus, Ohio added parking lots and it ran up their cost. They built their stadium out at the intersection of two highways on the outside of town. Are you so upset with the cost of this stadium because they are not building parking lots?

Driller Park is going to have lots of other features that most parks do not have. They include baseball specific items like underground batting cages and non-baseball items like infrastructure for other events like soccer and concerts.

Overall, the costs seem very much in-line with other recent stadiums yet you keep complaining about the price.

Columbus built their park with sales tax dollars. The new Driller Park is being financed with $30 million in private dollars and $5 million in rent from the team. The only public dollars are $1 million a year from downtown property owners.

Which way would you rather have?

Try to focus, man.  You were discussing the Springdale park, not Columbus.  You repeatedly posted the Springdale park's $40+ cost as being comparable to Tulsa's $40 Million cost, when your own post told us it was not a comparable number (because Springdale's $40 Million includes parking lots (and perhaps some other development) while Tulsa's is strictly stadium construction.  And, anybody with a fifth-grade reading comprehension can see that my concern is not that we are not getting parking lots.  Obviously, my concern is that we are overpaying for the stadium we are getting.  

There are red flags all over the place with this project, but the kool-aid drinkers want to wish them away.

The second paragraph, you finally address my initial post, where I surmised that there might be a reason for the higher costs.  At least you are for the moment implicitly admitting that Tulsa's park is costing more than other similarly-situated ballparks.  But, underground batting cages??  And I question how much extra is being spent on making the ballpark capable of hosting concerts and soccer games, especially when compared to other stadiums.  Most, if not all, stadiums are built with the idea of hosting an occasional concert.  What extra infrastructure does that really require?  Likewise, what extra infrastructure is required to host a soccer game?

As to your third paragraph, that is just plain false.  The costs of this stadium are not "very much in-line with other recent stadiums."  Repeating your preferred answer over and over does not make it so.  Again, go look at Bates' research on the topic.

As to your final two paragraphs, I am glad this is not being financed with sales taxes, but that is clearly a different topic altogether.  Just because it's not financed with sales taxes, are just supposed to accept anything they do?

Springdale's stadium is useful only for baseball, and doesn't have some of the features talked about for the new Drillers stadium. Obviously it's going to be less expensive.

Add to that the decreased expense in building anything on the edge of town rather than in a downtown core, Drillers stadium is in line with others on construction cost.

And that's not even counting the significant inflation in the cost of materials since Arvest Ballpark was built.

Which features, precisely will Tulsa's ballpark have that Springdale's lacks?  What design features, and more particularly extra costs are included in Tulsa's stadium to allow for these "features talked about for Tulsa's stadium"?

Where do you get the idea that suburban construction is inherently less expensive than construction on a site such as our new stadium?  Other than higher land costs (which are not included in these numbers) I'm not seeing it.  Can you quantify that all or provide sources, or in the words of Sgrizzle are you just making stuff up?

And can you attempt to quantify the "significant inflation" in construction costs since the Springdale stadium was bid and constructed?  Sorry, pal, but building materials have mostly come down in price since then and, given that very few new construction projects are being started these days, one would expect that for a competitive, openly bid project, the contractor costs would be down (or at least up very little).

[sgrizzle]

quote:Originally posted by Oil Capital



Wow, you get more dishonest with every post.  Try including the context of my post about Tulsa's stadium being the most expensive minor league stadium ever built.  TAKING INTO ACCOUNT THEIR SIZES.

pancakes? Reread your post dingleberry. You didn't say that.

[Oil Capital]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

Wouldnt the design, quality, materials etc. have an impact on the cost? I dont see how anyone can compare or complain about the cost until those things are known. I would rather have high quality, nice design, good materials etc. and it cost more, than something cheap and crappy just so its in line with what others spent. Until we know more about just what we are getting, its a bit premature to complain.

Hopefully we will get some more details at the time of the ground breaking.

But hardly premature to question...  As I said in my first post on the topic, There MIGHT be reasons for the extra costs.  But of course, as per usual on this board, no questioning of the powers to be is to be allowed.  Instead of doing any research into possible explanations, it's all denial, obfuscation and attack the messenger.

I look forward to the designs and finishes they have chosen for us, and learning why our stadium is costing so much more than other minor league stadiums.