Ballpark's Financing Arranged

[RecycleMichael]

Originally posted by Oil Capital
But of course, as per usual on this board, no questioning of the powers to be is to be allowed.  Instead of doing any research into possible explanations, it's all denial, obfuscation and attack the messenger.
/quote]

Quit with all the "powers that be" nonsense. Everyody else on this thread gives you answers and you act like this is some spy novel. That annoying "attack the messenger" line is also lame.

You jumped in this thread by calling a poster a name...made a ridiculous claim, then when exposed, go back and try to add other words to your quote.

You quote a local author and act like every other source isn't credible, then continually claim that everyone else can't comprehend the truth.

We've given you enough other resources, explanations, and theories as to why costs on this project might be different. We've discussed other parks, yet you only want to count other Texas League parks that were quoted by Michael Bates.

If we attack the messenger, it is because the messenger won't listen and thinks he is the only one who is right. Put that in your kool-aid.

[nathanm]

quote:Originally posted by Oil Capital

Which features, precisely will Tulsa's ballpark have that Springdale's lacks?  What design features, and more particularly extra costs are included in Tulsa's stadium to allow for these "features talked about for Tulsa's stadium"?
[/quote]
If you can't bother to read what other people have written, I'm not going to bother to enumerate those things once again.

As far as urban vs. suburban construction costs, you're being deliberately dense if you're arguing that point.

And materials costs? Still high, thanks to natural disasters. You're right that the labor costs should have decreased some since the Springdale park was built. Otherwise you're out to lunch.

[MichaelBates]

In response to various points that have been made about Arvest Ballpark in Springdale, Ark., etc.:

In 1991, Minor League Baseball (the National Association as it was then known) imposed Facility Standards )embedded in this very large PDF) on all teams. The only difference between AAA and AA is in minimum capacity -- a AA park must seat at least 6,000, a AAA park must seat at least 10,000.

Arvest Ballpark seats 6,500 and has 25 luxury suites. Picnic areas and berms can hold an extra 1,000 fans. Opening night this year drew 7,820.

This article by the team's GM, Eric Edelstein, in the Northwest Arkansas Times, explains some of the special features of the park, including a field drainage system identical to that being used in the new Yankee Stadium and a full-sized stage that can be used for concerts and pre-game festivities.

The stadium was designed by HOK and constructed by Crossland in 2007 and 2008 (post-Katrina). BaseballParks.com named it 2008 Ballpark of the Year and commended it for its "green" features, including motion-controlled lighting and special lighting for use by the cleanup crew, so that the big field lights can be turned off right after the game.

From the photos and articles I've seen I don't think it's fair to suggest that Arvest Ballpark is in any sense a substandard or no-frills park.

Regarding the cost of the park: Springdale's Morning News ran several articles in the spring and summer of 2007, as bids were received, contracts were awarded, and budgets were adjusted. This story from June 8, 2007, reports on changes to the budget after the construction contract was awarded to Crossland, the low bidder of only two bids submitted. Here is the City of Springdale's summary of the budget, as published in the newspaper:

quote:


City Costs with contingencies

Site preparation $1.7 million

Parking lot pavement $2.8 million

Stadium construction $33.2 million

Separate purchases $1.4 million

Land purchase $3.8 million

Design fees $2.0 million

Street improvements $3.6 million

Street engineering $0.5 million

Sewer and water $0.8 million

miscellaneous $0.3 million

bond costs $0.7 million

Total costs $50.9 million

I've highlighted the numbers that seem to me to provide an apples-to-apples comparison with what has been proposed for Tulsa. It adds up to $36.3 million, including (according to the story) $1 million for contingencies. The rest of the Springdale money went to a land acquisition, parking lot, four-laning an access road to connect the stadium to the main highway two miles north, and water and sewer connections to a previously undeveloped area.

[RecycleMichael]

Thanks Michael.

Tulsa's stadium project is two and a half years later and eight percent more costly than the one built in Arkansas. Sounds like a reasonable apples to apples comparison.

Ours probably costs more because we have a mascot (Hornsby) and they don't.

What kind of name is the "Naturals"? They sound like a group just completely opposed to breast augmentation.

[nathanm]

quote:
What kind of name is the "Naturals"? They sound like a group just completely opposed to breast augmentation.

And shaving.

At least they didn't pick Thunder Chickens. (yes, that name was in fact on the table)

[stymied]

quote:Originally posted by MichaelBates

In response to various points that have been made about Arvest Ballpark in Springdale, Ark., etc.:

In 1991, Minor League Baseball (the National Association as it was then known) imposed Facility Standards )embedded in this very large PDF) on all teams. The only difference between AAA and AA is in minimum capacity -- a AA park must seat at least 6,000, a AAA park must seat at least 10,000.

Arvest Ballpark seats 6,500 and has 25 luxury suites. Picnic areas and berms can hold an extra 1,000 fans. Opening night this year drew 7,820.

This article by the team's GM, Eric Edelstein, in the Northwest Arkansas Times, explains some of the special features of the park, including a field drainage system identical to that being used in the new Yankee Stadium and a full-sized stage that can be used for concerts and pre-game festivities.

The stadium was designed by HOK and constructed by Crossland in 2007 and 2008 (post-Katrina). BaseballParks.com named it 2008 Ballpark of the Year and commended it for its "green" features, including motion-controlled lighting and special lighting for use by the cleanup crew, so that the big field lights can be turned off right after the game.

From the photos and articles I've seen I don't think it's fair to suggest that Arvest Ballpark is in any sense a substandard or no-frills park.

Regarding the cost of the park: Springdale's Morning News ran several articles in the spring and summer of 2007, as bids were received, contracts were awarded, and budgets were adjusted. This story from June 8, 2007, reports on changes to the budget after the construction contract was awarded to Crossland, the low bidder of only two bids submitted. Here is the City of Springdale's summary of the budget, as published in the newspaper:

quote:


City Costs with contingencies

Site preparation $1.7 million

Parking lot pavement $2.8 million

Stadium construction $33.2 million

Separate purchases $1.4 million

Land purchase $3.8 million

Design fees $2.0 million

Street improvements $3.6 million

Street engineering $0.5 million

Sewer and water $0.8 million

miscellaneous $0.3 million

bond costs $0.7 million

Total costs $50.9 million

I've highlighted the numbers that seem to me to provide an apples-to-apples comparison with what has been proposed for Tulsa. It adds up to $36.3 million, including (according to the story) $1 million for contingencies. The rest of the Springdale money went to a land acquisition, parking lot, four-laning an access road to connect the stadium to the main highway two miles north, and water and sewer connections to a previously undeveloped area.

The Springdale Ballpark was also "hard bid" vs. a negotiated design-build.  This is very different.  Have you seen the Springdale Ballpark up close?  I have.  The quality of the work at Springdale is substandard.  Many items were not put in that were needed, but were not on the drawings.  That is what you get with a hard bid - tough luck-go talk to your architect.  With design-build there is no finger pointing, it is not adversarial, the architect and builder are contractually the same entity - nothing will be missed.  

The Springdale Ballpark also had just 25 suites compared to the proposed 30 suites for the Drillers, plus the Drillers Ballpark will also have 2 premium level party decks of over 5,000 sf with seating for over 500, which are not as expensive per seat as the suites themselves, but are much more expensive than standard seats.  Springdale had no party decks.

Furthermore the Springdale site is 11 rural acres vs. just over 7 urban acres with massive utilities running through it.  In fact The 39.2 budget includes $2 million just to relocate these utilities.  That is a cost Springdale never had to incur.  Whoever said it doesn't cost more to build urban vs. suburban or rural doesn't know what there talking about.  Think shoehorn.

I don't believe the $33.2 million cost included contingency because I know the bid cost was $32,998,562.  At any rate, it does not include the $2 million contingency that is part of the $39.2 budget for the Drillers.  The contingency would have been substantially less because for Springdale because they had 100% completed documents.  And the owner carried that cost separately.

So if you want to get really apples to apples do this:

Springdale - $33 construction bid + $2 million design + $1.7 million site prep + $1.4 separate purchases = $38.1 plus add $2 million for utility relocation $200,000 for the 5 additional suites, and $250,000 premium for the party decks.  That is a $40.55 comparable number to the Drillers budget.  

Finally you have to consider the added value of having a design build situation vs. a hard-bid project.  

Example 1: 5th Inning, pitcher is getting tired, time to call up the bullpen.  Oh, wait what's that?  No phone?  Guess we'll have to use smoke signals.  Actually they have to use cell phones because yes, the telephones lines and phones were left off the prints from the dugouts to the bullpens, so the contractor did not install them.

Example 2: They have a pretty cool small baseball diamond on the concourse area for the kids to play wiffle ball.  Better bring a change of clothes though, because there was no drainage done.  Not on the drawings, so you don't get drainage.  Now one of the neat features of the Springdale Park is not useable most of the time because it is a natural low spot for about a 1/4 acre worth of site and is muddy 90% of the time.  In fact drainage is a huge issue at Springdale.  The Field had good drainage, but much of the hard surface drainage and surrounding greenscape drainage is inadequate or entirely missing in many cases because it was not on the drawings.  The Visitor's dugout tunnel for example has over 5" of standing water after rains because there was no drain placed there on the drawings.  They have to use buckets to bale out the water.

Example 3: The design did not consider that the suite holders might actually open their doors during a game.  Once they got into summer games, they realized that upon opening the doors the suites' hvac systems were inadequate to the tune of 300%!  They had to spend over $300,000 or replace the hvac equipment only a few months after the park had opened.

 

[cannon_fodder]

I object to the soccer field...

The drawing also shows the 120 Lofts and Retail.  Clearly it is a purely fictional rendering.  [B)]

[sgrizzle]

Thank you Stymied.

[sgrizzle]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

I object to the soccer field...

The drawing also shows the 120 Lofts and Retail.  Clearly it is a purely fictional rendering.  [B)]

C'mon, throw USR a bone.

[stymied]

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

Thank you Stymied.

One more thing: According to RS Means Building Construction Cost Data, the Springdale construction market location factor is 77.1 vs. 80.3 for Tulsa.  This basically means that construction costs are about 4% more in Tulsa than in Springdale, which makes sense because it is more rural there.

Also the current Building Cost Index from Engineering News Record is 4847 vs. 4340 in mid 2006 when Arvest Ballpark was bid.  That is 11.6% inflation folks.  I know everyone thinks prices are going down, which they are, but that has only been a trend over the last few months-not for the majority of this year or the 2 years+ since that ballpark was bid.  In fact, according to ENR, the Building Cost Index is still +5.3% for this year.  Material costs decreases take much more time to be realized by the end user, and material is just one part of it.  Only about 40% of it to be accurate.  So, while material is down slighly over the past few months labor and equipment costs have been actually still going up.

[Oil Capital]

quote:Originally posted by stymied

quote:Originally posted by MichaelBates

In response to various points that have been made about Arvest Ballpark in Springdale, Ark., etc.:

In 1991, Minor League Baseball (the National Association as it was then known) imposed Facility Standards )embedded in this very large PDF) on all teams. The only difference between AAA and AA is in minimum capacity -- a AA park must seat at least 6,000, a AAA park must seat at least 10,000.

Arvest Ballpark seats 6,500 and has 25 luxury suites. Picnic areas and berms can hold an extra 1,000 fans. Opening night this year drew 7,820.

This article by the team's GM, Eric Edelstein, in the Northwest Arkansas Times, explains some of the special features of the park, including a field drainage system identical to that being used in the new Yankee Stadium and a full-sized stage that can be used for concerts and pre-game festivities.

The stadium was designed by HOK and constructed by Crossland in 2007 and 2008 (post-Katrina). BaseballParks.com named it 2008 Ballpark of the Year and commended it for its "green" features, including motion-controlled lighting and special lighting for use by the cleanup crew, so that the big field lights can be turned off right after the game.

From the photos and articles I've seen I don't think it's fair to suggest that Arvest Ballpark is in any sense a substandard or no-frills park.

Regarding the cost of the park: Springdale's Morning News ran several articles in the spring and summer of 2007, as bids were received, contracts were awarded, and budgets were adjusted. This story from June 8, 2007, reports on changes to the budget after the construction contract was awarded to Crossland, the low bidder of only two bids submitted. Here is the City of Springdale's summary of the budget, as published in the newspaper:

quote:


City Costs with contingencies

Site preparation $1.7 million

Parking lot pavement $2.8 million

Stadium construction $33.2 million

Separate purchases $1.4 million

Land purchase $3.8 million

Design fees $2.0 million

Street improvements $3.6 million

Street engineering $0.5 million

Sewer and water $0.8 million

miscellaneous $0.3 million

bond costs $0.7 million

Total costs $50.9 million

I've highlighted the numbers that seem to me to provide an apples-to-apples comparison with what has been proposed for Tulsa. It adds up to $36.3 million, including (according to the story) $1 million for contingencies. The rest of the Springdale money went to a land acquisition, parking lot, four-laning an access road to connect the stadium to the main highway two miles north, and water and sewer connections to a previously undeveloped area.

The Springdale Ballpark was also "hard bid" vs. a negotiated design-build.  This is very different.  Have you seen the Springdale Ballpark up close?  I have.  The quality of the work at Springdale is substandard.  Many items were not put in that were needed, but were not on the drawings.  That is what you get with a hard bid - tough luck-go talk to your architect.  With design-build there is no finger pointing, it is not adversarial, the architect and builder are contractually the same entity - nothing will be missed.  

The Springdale Ballpark also had just 25 suites compared to the proposed 30 suites for the Drillers, plus the Drillers Ballpark will also have 2 premium level party decks of over 5,000 sf with seating for over 500, which are not as expensive per seat as the suites themselves, but are much more expensive than standard seats.  Springdale had no party decks.

Furthermore the Springdale site is 11 rural acres vs. just over 7 urban acres with massive utilities running through it.  In fact The 39.2 budget includes $2 million just to relocate these utilities.  That is a cost Springdale never had to incur.  Whoever said it doesn't cost more to build urban vs. suburban or rural doesn't know what there talking about.  Think shoehorn.

I don't believe the $33.2 million cost included contingency because I know the bid cost was $32,998,562.  At any rate, it does not include the $2 million contingency that is part of the $39.2 budget for the Drillers.  The contingency would have been substantially less because for Springdale because they had 100% completed documents.  And the owner carried that cost separately.

So if you want to get really apples to apples do this:

Springdale - $33 construction bid + $2 million design + $1.7 million site prep + $1.4 separate purchases = $38.1 plus add $2 million for utility relocation $200,000 for the 5 additional suites, and $250,000 premium for the party decks.  That is a $40.55 comparable number to the Drillers budget.  

Finally you have to consider the added value of having a design build situation vs. a hard-bid project.  

Example 1: 5th Inning, pitcher is getting tired, time to call up the bullpen.  Oh, wait what's that?  No phone?  Guess we'll have to use smoke signals.  Actually they have to use cell phones because yes, the telephones lines and phones were left off the prints from the dugouts to the bullpens, so the contractor did not install them.

Example 2: They have a pretty cool small baseball diamond on the concourse area for the kids to play wiffle ball.  Better bring a change of clothes though, because there was no drainage done.  Not on the drawings, so you don't get drainage.  Now one of the neat features of the Springdale Park is not useable most of the time because it is a natural low spot for about a 1/4 acre worth of site and is muddy 90% of the time.  In fact drainage is a huge issue at Springdale.  The Field had good drainage, but much of the hard surface drainage and surrounding greenscape drainage is inadequate or entirely missing in many cases because it was not on the drawings.  The Visitor's dugout tunnel for example has over 5" of standing water after rains because there was no drain placed there on the drawings.  They have to use buckets to bale out the water.

Example 3: The design did not consider that the suite holders might actually open their doors during a game.  Once they got into summer games, they realized that upon opening the doors the suites' hvac systems were inadequate to the tune of 300%!  They had to spend over $300,000 or replace the hvac equipment only a few months after the park had opened.

 

Thank you, Stymied.  It's nice to finally have someone present some facts that are likely to contribute to a cost difference.  Very interesting.

[Oil Capital]

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

quote:Originally posted by Oil Capital



Wow, you get more dishonest with every post.  Try including the context of my post about Tulsa's stadium being the most expensive minor league stadium ever built.  TAKING INTO ACCOUNT THEIR SIZES.

pancakes? Reread your post dingleberry. You didn't say that.

pancakes, indeed.  Do you not understand the concept of CONTEXT??   (And apparently Recycle Michael doesn't understand the concept either.)

[RecycleMichael]

Poor try, Oil Capitol.

Adding words to your post later and then blaming us because you meant something more or less is a lame argument.

Now we have a poster who has answered all your questions and refuted all your claims.

The price of the new Driller Stadium is right in line with other projects, there clearly is fair way to compare them, the ballpark you cited was more expensive than you said, and there are a number of extras to the Tulsa one.

The ball is in your court. Do you want to say you were wrong, or do you want to claim we don't understand what context you were using?

[TheArtist]

Latest renderings. Unfortunately I dont think either of these shows the side facing towards the Brady and Blue Dome Districts? Or do I have my directions wrong. Was hoping there would be an interesting "grand entrance" on that side. I believe I read some where that the stadium was to be stone and steel Was kind of hoping for brick, but hey, good to be different and unique too. Plus stone and steel can have a nice, solid, higher quality to it. I like contemporary, but hope the Brady facing side is more pedestrian friendly than what I am seeing here. From what I can tell so far, design wise... its "ok", its growing on me. Its not like any of the potential scenarios I was thinking they could take, so may take a bit to digest this design and see how it settles in. The exact materials they use will still make a BIG difference on what its going to really be like.  

[nathanm]

Can I just say that I really hope the official name for the place doesn't include the word "ballpark." It sounds little league.

I cringe every time I drive into Springdale and see the signs referring to "Arvest Ballpark."