Brack O-Bonga? (decrimninalize marijuana)

[cannon_fodder]

Interesting article I was sent by a friend discussing Obama's stance on the war on drugs, I figured I would use it to open a discussion we haven't had for a good long while:

"I do believe the war on drugs has been an utter failure and we need to reassess how we handle this . . . I am not in favor of legalization . . . our current effort [is] expensive, it's counterproductive, and it doesn't make sense."  - Obama

http://www.esquire.com/the-side/richardson-report/obama-marijuana-legalization-122308

Over all a very interesting argument (not all made in the above argument):

- 782,000 marijuana arrests

- About 80,000 Americans a year go to prison for marijuana (more than all violent crimes combined)

- Economists estimate the Federal Government would net (net = save/make) $10-14,000,000,000.00 each year from decriminalization measures (to my surprise, not hacks either. 300 respected economists including Milton Friedman).

- It is estimated 50% of the drug trade involves marijuana (won't bother extrapolating the crime/cost of the illegal drug trade on society)

- Marijuana has some proven medical uses (proven by private institutes, universities, and the State of California.  The Federal Government has not researched marijuana as a medical drug NOR has a potential hazard)

- Rate of marijuana use have not significantly changed in line with spending on the "war on drugs."  Our current tactic of prohibition has not worked to achieve the goal of "just say no."  (about 40% admit to trying [increased from 30% since the war on drugs began], 10% occasional, and 7% regular use - both held steady)

- Industrial products - ancillary industrial uses and agricultural production of hemp and hemp products

- Research - who knows what else the benefits or HARM of marijuana use, production, or research would be.  The study is prohibited.

- Other examples - the United States has the highest percentage of adults who have tried marijuana and a relatively high use of regular users.  Canada, Spain, England, France, New Zealand, Australia and the Checzk Republic are close by (above and below the USA).  We spend more than all of them combined annually on drug prevention and have more people in prison for related crimes.  What advantage do we achieve by this?  Perhaps there are better examples of how to handle it.
- - - -

Just an interesting dialogue.  Personally: so long as you aren't driving, breaking in to my home to fund your habit, endangering other people, or spending money you don't have on things you can't afford (thereby making me pay for housing, children, etc.) - I don't care what you do.  The same logic applies to alcohol, tobacco, cocaine or marijuana.  

Clearly some things have addictive qualities that would make them more susceptible to violations of the above than others (cocaine, heroine, etc.).  Clearly some things are so detrimental that their use may be too dangerous for society (meth, crack).  However it is hard to argue the effort and resources brought to bare against pot are proportional or beneficial.  

Alcohol. Tobacco.  Prescription medicine.  Caffeine.  Aspirin.  Plenty of things cause more damage than marijuana.  It is abused by "stoners" who habitual smoke up day and night, as alcoholics abuse their drug of choice.  But mostly it's recreational use no different than having 3 or 4 beers at a Christmas party.

My over riding concern:  what we are doing doesn't work and arguably doesn't make sense.  Why don't we try something different?  As soon as we find out someone can use something as a recreational drug, we make it illegal and chase after it.  If we found you you could get high from pickled walnuts we would set about cutting down all walnut trees.

Calm down.   Lets figure out a better way to handle this situation.  I hope Obama says "yes we can!"  




Full Disclaimer:  

I have tried most every drug you can name including marijuana, and I inhaled deeply and often.  When my son was born I decided I had to have other priorities and that a conviction on some stupid drug offense would seriously undermine such goals.  So I no longer use illegal drugs and probably rarely would even if it was legal (availability of time to be able to lose control is scant, a good pot binge would have to be planned like a good alcohol binge = no kids to watch, no driving, etc.).  

Basically, I have no personal user's stake in this discussion.

[Wrinkle]

I, too, have no stake in this, not being a user. But, do believe something else needs to be done/tried.

I do know many folks who do use pot on a regular basis and still consider them to be otherwise fine, upstanding adult contributors to society. Virtually all are responsible with their use, though the law makes no distinction.

I do believe much of current juris prudence is oriented toward fulfilling contract requirements for 'per case' initiatives and prison population expectations (cash flow).

Just in Tulsa County Jail operations, it's estimated that over 50% of its' tenants are there on fairly minor pot charges. If the County lost this revenue, would operations yield the same result? They should, rather, not be dependent upon population.

That speaks nothing of the billions spent at the Federal level, excluding other billions provided countries like Colombia in the 'Drug War'.

...anyway, it could be time to try something else.

[Hometown]

Mexico has been trying to legalize small amounts of recreational drugs for several years now but each attempt has been foiled by objections from the U.S.

Don't you just know that Mexico City is the most dynamic City in Northern American now – Given their young population and economic advances.  And would it surprise you that very traditional Mexico has legalized gay marriage?

Anyway, Mexico City apparently has managed to get around U.S. objections to decriminalization.  Here's what happened there this past October.

October 31, 2008

Latin America: Mexico City to Decriminalize Marijuana Possession?
view translation

While the government of Mexican President Felipe Calderón has signaled that it wants to decriminalize drug possession, legislators in Mexico City aren't waiting for the government to act. The left-leaning Democratic Revolutionary Party (PRD) has introduced legislation that would decriminalize marijuana possession in Mexico City and provide for the opening of establishments that would sell up to five grams per person, the same limit as Holland's famous marijuana coffee shops.

The legislation was presented by PRD Deputy and Federal District Legislative Assembly President Víctor Hugo Círigo on October 14. It includes a provision limiting the amount of pot one could possess without penalty to 30 grams, or slightly more than one ounce. Círigo said the legislation also envisions allowing people to grow up to five plants in their homes.

Under current law, marijuana is illegal, and the importation of seeds or other products derived from marijuana is also illegal. In Mexico City, people caught smoking marijuana are typically fined 21 to 30 days minimum salary (a common way of computing fines in Latin America) or jailed for 24 to 36 hours.

Círigo told a press conference he was proposing the legislation because of the therapeutic uses of the herb. He also cited its potential impact on Mexico's drug trafficking organizations. Nearly 4,000 people have been killed so far this year in prohibition-related violence as the various so-called cartels, Mexican state, local, and federal police forces, and the Mexican military engage in a multi-sided war over the illicit drug trade.

"In Italy and Canada they utilize it for therapeutic uses, and in other countries like Switzerland, Germany, Belgium, and Portugal it is decriminalized," said Círigo.

Círigo said organized crime is making $13 billion a year off the drug trade. More than half of that -- $8 billion -- is derived from the marijuana business, he said.

"We are going to hit the drug traffickers where it hurts most, which is decriminalizing marijuana," he said.

If the measure were to pass in the local legislative assembly, it would then be sent to the federal congress, which could then amend federal health laws to allow for decriminalization. President Calderón called recently for the decriminalization of possession of small amounts of all drugs, including up to two grams of marijuana, but Círigo called Calderón's proposal "weak and timid."

In response to a question during the press conference, Círigo said he had smoked pot as a youth, but no longer did so. "I smoked in my youth in the '70s," he said. "I was class of 1978, and of course I know what it is to smoke marijuana."


http://stopthedrugwar.org/chronicle/558/mexico_city_federal_district_marijuana_decriminalization_bill_introduced

[Gaspar]

Dude?
Dude!

[TheArtist]

I dont "use" it and have never tried it.

It seems to me that there are a handful of shared, root causes to most of todays ills. From the kids in the news, just today, killing or getting killed, to dropping out of school, to people having abortions, using drugs, stealing, etc. etc. If we were wave a magic wand and get rid of every criminal there was at this very moment... a new group would be there the very next day to take their place, with more to follow. We cant arrest, lock up, or punish our way out of crime. At this point in our societies development, I think we would be better served putting more focus on getting to the root causes.

I was listening to an abortion debate the other day. Legal or Illegal. Looks like a political stalemate. I kept thinking... If these people would use their passion, energy and money they are using to fight each other, to getting rid of the conditions which would cause someone to consider having an abortion, we would eliminate just as many as we likely could by making them illegal. AND you would still want to get rid of the underlying causes anyway.  As I thought about some of the various likely causes, many  went back to basic parenting, education, and social habits and conditions, etc. The major root causes that we should want to change and make better anyway. No matter what crime you talk about the root causes end up being the same. So by fighting the root causes of one,,, you fight the root causes of them all.

There are always exceptions (the rare person who genetically has no empathy, the people who become easily addicted to "drugs, gambling, food, sex, etc.") But even those can be defined and addressed. And it still seems more productive to me to get at the big root causes, to really sit down and define what they are and how to tackle them, (I dont pretend to absolutely know) versus fighting about each different end result, spending time, money and effort making laws against the end results. There are so many groups for and against so many things, fighting, capturing, processing, punishing, locking up,,, the end results that if they were to get together changing the root causes, we could make some real headway.

So as for worrying about a law in some book for or against marijuana...

It keeps reminding me of something I heard in church. Laws written in the hearts and minds of men. Thats where they should be written, where our major attentions should be focused. On earth as it is in heaven. Isnt that the ultimate goal? And all else distraction?

I dont do or not do things because its in some law book or treatise.  Sure we have to have things written down as guidelines, best practices, to remember and check what we have agreed upon, to learn from, teach from, etc. But ultimately I do whats written in my heart and mind, despite whats written in stone or paper. I have to believe it and think its right. And I am sure most people do as well. Change whats on paper if you must, but the result will only happen if you change peoples hearts and minds. If you get to the root cause and have people that want to do good, have the skills to make good choices, and know the good choices to choose from... Will it matter if marijuana is legal or not? Abortion, gun control, alcohol, gangs, theft, etc.?

Pollyanish true. Could we ever perfectly get there,,, who knows. Will the way we have been doing things really ever work? Which path should deserve more of our focus?

Just some thoughts.

[we vs us]

We're Puritans, and we've always been Puritans at heart.  A major strain in American culture really wants sharp, hard lines drawn between acceptable and unacceptable behavior. Aside from the economic interest in keeping marijuana prohibition alive, I really think we just like to know that there're plenty of bad things out there against which we can make the heroic choice to be good.  Never mind the underlying logic or science.

[Jonette]

It really is funny that we are discussing this subject.

Just last night I was screaming at my son and his friends. I told them that I don't care what you do in your free time, but if your recreational use of pot interferes with your ability to function and contribute to society then it is no longer deemed recreational. It is then an addiction that is preventing you from proceeding with life.

You have to keep a job and maintain your responsibilities. Otherwise your just a stagnant drain on the system. I won't support you and you won't live in my house.

One of his "friends" told me I was disrespecting him and he did not appreciate it.

I then told him he could "get out!"

I am sure he only has 2 brain cells left and they are busy fighting each other. LOL

I also feel that there are a lot of people in jail for minor pot offenses. It is a way for counties and cities to make revenue. I am not sure how they would replace this revenue. I am also sure this is a factor when debating the issue of legalization.


Disclaimer:

I have smoked A LOT of pot in my life. I have not used any other illegal drug. I always kept this aspect of my life separate from my kids. They were always first. I am also of the frame of mind that an occasional buzz at a party is harmless. I also work 60 hours a week and take care of my responsibilities. My yard and my house are clean and by looking at me you would never suspect a thing. I probably participate about 2 times a year. [}:)] Now you know!!

[rwarn17588]

quote:Originally posted by Jonette



I also feel that there are a lot of people in jail for minor pot offenses. It is a way for counties and cities to make revenue. I am not sure how they would replace this revenue.

That's easy. Start by enforcing laws and getting convictions on misdeeds that are more important and impactful on society.

Can't really argue you about your son's slacker
friends.

Disclosure: I've never smoked pot in my life. I've always been strongly adverse to tobacco, so marijuana obviously has never appealed to me.

Besides, beer is cheaper, legal and more tasty.

[Jonette]

Ewwwwwwwwwwwww I don't like BEER!!

I don't see what people like in the taste of beer. Not an enjoyable taste to me at all.

I do like the occasional mixed drink (maybe twice a year) maybe a long island iced tea, but that's all the alcohol I can stand.

I also don't drink or smoke till I am like this [xx(] either.

Just a little fun buzz, that's all ya need. Everything in moderation people.

Keep it simple.


[]

[nathanm]

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588


Besides, beer is cheaper, legal and more tasty.

I disagree on cheaper and more tasty, but it is much easier and safer to acquire and certainly more socially accepted.

[rwarn17588]

quote:Originally posted by nathanm

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588


Besides, beer is cheaper, legal and more tasty.

I disagree on cheaper ...

Your weed must have a lot of seeds and stems. []

[Jonette]

Seeds and stems?[]

[TulsaFan-inTexas]

quote:Originally posted by Jonette

Seeds and stems?[]

Yeah, bong fodder...

[CoffeeBean]

I've always felt that alcohol was far and away more dangerous than pot.  Go ask any ER doc or nurse about the number of pot heads or pot-related injuries they see.  

[Jonette]

Ya. I know what stems and seeds are. I thought it was a weird reference coming from someone who has "Never" smoked.[?]


E.R. patrons of the intoxicated kind are mostly alcohol related. ALL THE TIME!!!!



Pot smokers? NEVER!!!!