Brack O-Bonga? (decrimninalize marijuana)

[rwarn17588]

quote:Originally posted by Jonette

Ya. I know what stems and seeds are. I thought it was a weird reference coming from someone who has "Never" smoked.[?]

It's called reading a lot. And I wasn't born yesterday, y'know.

[RecycleMichael]

Commander Cody and the Lost Planet Airmen

I'm sittin alone, Saturday night, watching the Late Late Show.
A bottle of wine, some cigarettes, I got no place to go.
Well, I saw your other man today; he was wearing my brand new shoes,
And I'm down to seeds and stems again, too.


Well, I met my old friend Bob today from up in Bowling Green;
He had the prettiest little gal that I'd ever seen.
But I couldn't hide my tears at all, cause she looked just like you,
And I'm down to seeds and stems again, too.


Now everybody tells me there's other ways to get high.
They don't seem to understand I'm too far gone to try.
Now these lonely memories, they're all I can't lose,
And I'm down to seeds and stems again, too.


Well my dog died just yesterday and left me all alone.
The finance company dropped by today and repossessed my home.
That's just a drop in the bucket compared to losing you,
And I'm down to seeds and stems again, too.


Got the Down to Seeds an Stems again Blues.

[Pebbles]

I just watched some of Cops and this one scene was just a marijuana arrest.  What was striking was that the cop himself admired the nice looking buds and was not in any tizzy about arresting the guy.  The guy had no other drugs on him.  He was booked on the felony of selling pot, based on the amount he had (about an ounce).

Tell me, is that really worth it all?  It seems to me the most the guy was guilty of was possessing a jar full of plant matter and being a nice guy.  

I am like the OP, I don't smoke it because it is not worth the potential trouble.  What worries me is that the punishment certainly does not fit the crime here.  Also, from other stories I am aware of the DEA is basing its scheduling of marijuana on the drug list based on non existent facts.  However it also refuses to acknowledge marijuana on a medical level.  It is certainly a criminal shame that deserves Supreme Court attention in order to make the DEA reassess its principles.

[Double A]

Medical Marijuana prohibition is the most absurd, unethical drug policy in existence. To deny dying patients who are literally wasting away, often due to side effects of treatment, a relatively harmless substance that could help alleviate their loss of appetite and nausea so they might maintain proper nourishment while engaging in a courageous battle to overcome a life threatening illness, is truly criminal.

[MH2010]

I hate to break up the marijuana wonder drug party but...

Smoking marijuana also weakens the immune system and raises the risk of lung infections.
-I. B. Adams and BR Martin, "Cannabis: Pharmacology and Toxicology in Animals and Humans" Addiction 91: 1585-1614. 1996.
National Institute of Drug Abuse, "Smoking Any Substance Raises Risk of Lung Infections" NIDA Notes, Volume 12, Number 1, January/February 1997.

A Columbia University study found that a control group smoking a single marijuana cigarette every other day for a year had a white-blood-cell count that was 39 percent lower than normal, thus damaging the immune system and making the user far more susceptible to infection and sickness. - Dr. James Dobson, "Marijuana Can Cause Great Harm" Washington Times, February 23, 1999.


Any determination of a drug's valid medical use must be based on the best available science undertaken by medical professionals. The Institute of Medicine conducted a comprehensive study in 1999 to assess the potential health benefits of marijuana and its constituent cannabinoids. The study concluded that smoking marijuana is not recommended for the treatment of any disease condition. In addition, there are more effective medications currently available. For those reasons, the Institute of Medicine concluded that there is little future in smoked marijuana as a medically approved medication.- "Marijuana and Medicine: Assessing the Science Base," Institute of Medicine, 1999.

In other studies, smoked marijuana has been shown to cause a variety of health problems, including cancer, respiratory problems, increased heart rate, loss of motor skills, and increased heart rate. Furthermore, marijuana can affect the immune system by impairing the ability of T-cells to fight off infections, demonstrating that marijuana can do more harm than good in people with already compromised immune systems. - I. B. Adams and BR Martin, "Cannabis: Pharmacology and Toxicology in Animals and Humans" Addiction 91: 1585-1614. 1996.


Harvard University researchers report that the risk of a heart attack is five times higher than usual in the hour after smoking marijuana. - "Marijuana and Heart Attacks" Washington Post, March 3, 2000

In addition, in a recent study by the Mayo Clinic, THC was shown to be less effective than standard treatments in helping cancer patients regain lost appetites. - Marijuana Appetite Boost Lacking in Cancer Study" The New York Times, May 13, 2001

[rwarn17588]

quote:Originally posted by MH2010

I hate to break up the marijuana wonder drug party but...

Smoking marijuana also weakens the immune system and raises the risk of lung infections.
-I. B. Adams and BR Martin, "Cannabis: Pharmacology and Toxicology in Animals and Humans" Addiction 91: 1585-1614. 1996.
National Institute of Drug Abuse, "Smoking Any Substance Raises Risk of Lung Infections" NIDA Notes, Volume 12, Number 1, January/February 1997.

A Columbia University study found that a control group smoking a single marijuana cigarette every other day for a year had a white-blood-cell count that was 39 percent lower than normal, thus damaging the immune system and making the user far more susceptible to infection and sickness. - Dr. James Dobson, "Marijuana Can Cause Great Harm" Washington Times, February 23, 1999.

(blah blah blah)

Then you have the unrepentant, pot-smoking Willie Nelson, who's 75 years old, still doing hundreds of shows a year, and about the only health issue he's had is carpal tunnel syndrome, which was caused by his guitar-playing, not marijuana. And his hands are now fine after surgery, thank ya very much.

The health studies you cited are pretty weak tea, IMO. Many of them are nearly 10 years old, and I can find you other studies that show marijuana creating certain benefits or, at most, being benign.

A hint: It's not wise to cite a vain ideologue like Jame Dobson as a source.

I've never smoked pot, and have no stake it. I see little harm in it being legal, as long as people don't drive or use heavy machinery under its influence. (Usual DUI laws apply.) I'm basing my stance on life observation and good science. There just isn't a very compelling reason to keep pot illegal anymore, and a number of voters in other states have already headed in this direction.

You're a cop. You have a vested interest to keep marijuana illegal. Just sayin'.

[MH2010]

People have relatives that have smoked a pack of cigarettes a day for years and show no ill effects but they are still proven to be harmful so your example of Willie Nelson is severely lacking.  

Just because you don't like the results of the scientific studies I mentioned does not make them any less valid.  Some are dated by a whopping 10 years, however, scientists don't restudy the positive effects of penicillin or the polio vaccine to keep them valid.

As far as the "cop" angle, if you make marijuana legal it is one less thing to enforce which makes my job easier. In addition, more wide spread marijuana use will likely cause an increase in crime which in turn causes me to chase more criminals which makes my job more fun.  So actually, on a professional level, I would be for legalizing it.  However, after seeing the effects of marijuana use on families,teenagers and adults, on a personal level, I hope that it stays illegal.

[MH2010]

quote:Originally posted by tim huntzinger

quote:Originally posted by MH2010

As far as the "cop" angle, if you make marijuana legal it is one less thing to enforce which makes my job easier. In addition, more wide spread marijuana use will likely cause an increase in crime which in turn causes me to chase more criminals which makes my job more fun.  So actually, on a professional level, I would be for legalizing it.  However, after seeing the effects of marijuana use on families,teenagers and adults, on a personal level, I hope that it stays illegal.

Easier? How many pot busts do you do that your job would be 'easier'? Stop. Please.  I am glad you are willing to stand in the gap between good people and bad people, but this war on non-taxable items cannot be rationalized.  You want to save the yoots and 'families'? You should advocate alkeehawl prohibition too.

I make alot of marijuana arrests. Alcohol and marijuana are completely two different animals when it comes to use, addiction and recovery.

[Pebbles]

I appreciate the points of view offered here.  I have a tremendous respect for LEO's and I believe the majority of them have empathy towards those they arrest for substances.  I would daresay that marijuana alone while not healthy in the strictest sense of the word it is far less destructive than the other drugs such as opiates and uppers.  

To be fair, people are going to smoke whether it is bad for them or not, whether it is pot or 'baccy.  And look at the 'baccy plant... people can grow if they wish but they prefer the convenience of being able to buy it ready made.  So the lack of taxation issues is not a concern.  

Marijuana is the one and only drug we are concerned about, as far as legalization efforts.  Can anyone remember exactly why it is illegal in the first place?  Was it a bad thing?  Where is the evidence of it, that it is worse than the other two big legal drugs, alcohol and 'baccy?  Are the ER rooms full of pot related injuries?  

Thanks to all who contributed their voice and feel free to speak out, or hold your peace in this thread.

[Red Arrow]

quote:Originally posted by Pebbles
Marijuana is the one and only drug we are concerned about, as far as legalization efforts.  Can anyone remember exactly why it is illegal in the first place?  Was it a bad thing?  Where is the evidence of it, that it is worse than the other two big legal drugs, alcohol and 'baccy?  Are the ER rooms full of pot related injuries?  

PBS, History, or Discovery had a history of Illegal Drugs and how they got that way.  

What I remember from the series is that Marijuana was largely a drug of the minorities who were feared for probably trumped up reasons. Also the liquor interests had an interest in getting rid of some of the competition.  I don't remember any truly legitimate reason at the time it was made illegal.

[Jonette]

Okay. first of all marijuana is not "dope".

Marijuana is "pot"

Crank, Coke, Meth, opiates, and crack are "dope".

Second. The E.R. is not full of "pot" related injuries because pot heads smoke up and stay home on the sofa listening to music and watching the TV with the volume muted. And when some idiot starts a fight, the pot head will stop the whole thing. It goes some thing like this.

"Come on mannnnnnnnnn.........Calmmmmmm down. You don't want to fight tonight?, do ya? Smoke another bowl and chill out mannnnnnnnn"[8D]


Another peaceful night and no injuries.





[}:)]

[Hometown]

Thousands of Board Certified Doctors across the U.S. in states that have laws that permit have written prescriptions for the medical use of marijuana.

Tulsa likes to fancy herself a leader in medicine but in this regard Oklahoma is far behind the curve.

[cannon_fodder]

MH2010:

1)  Yes, studies have shown that smoking an unfiltered marijuana joint is bad for your health (and 10 years old is a perfectly valid study in most fields).  Just as smoking one unfiltered cigarette each day would be bad for your health. Or smoking ANYTHING is bad for your health.  The study cited has fault and has been criticized, but I have no doubts consistently smoking anything is bad for your health.

I also don't deny that there are probably compounds in the smoke that cause cancer.  It stands to reason, it is smoke.  Likewise, I will believe that the risk of a heart attack in the 5 minutes after smoking increases five fold to 1:1,000,000 - so what?  The risk of heart attack increases about that much with excess intake of caffeine (excess being more than one cup of coffee).  

Smoking one joint a day would be a fairly heavy habit.  A healthy joint is enough to get a decent buzz going.  I imagine drinking enough alcohol to get a decent buzz going on a daily basis would also be bad for your health.  So would holding your breath until you get dizzy every day...

What I'm getting at is the health pitfalls of smoking marijuana that you cited do not rise to the level of many, many things that ARE legal.  Tobacco, alcohol, red bull and on and on.  Many legal prescription medicines have MUCH more severe side effects than those listed for marijuana but Doctors and Patients are free to decide if the rewards are worth the side effects.

I won't bother showing the numerous studies that offset your studies - like all research you can find some support for both sides.  The fact is - actual research on marijuana is scant and when performed it is thin.  

Basically, medical detriment is clearly not a sound or justifiable reason to keep marijuana illegal, let alone classified as a felony worthy item.

2)  

quote:However, after seeing the effects of marijuana use on families,teenagers and adults, on a personal level, I hope that it stays illegal.

Most of the negative effects of marijuana are BECAUSE it is illegal.  Criminal elements.  Secrecy.  Gangs.

Evading arrest.  Lying to police officers.  Running from the law. Even most "rehab" for marijuana offenses (much cited in addiction studies) are essentially court-ordered (in lieu of jail time).

Just like any other form of recreation, excessive or improper use is detrimental.  You can't skip school to smoke pot or be stoned in school just like I can't skip work to go fishing o go online to buy lures while billing a client.  You can't smoke a cigar a day and not expect it to impact your health.  You can't get "buzzed" on alcohol each day and expect all to be well.

What detrimental impact on people or families does excessive marijuana use have that is not related to it being illegal OR not common to excessive adherence to other forms of recreation?

3) More widespread marijuana use will cause an increase in crime?

Please explain.  I have been around a lot of pot smokers, both when they are smoking and not smoking.  Other than possessing and smoking pot I don't think I have seen any crimes committed while high (underage drinking probably).  I've never seen the effect of marijuana to be to encourage reckless, violent, or otherwise criminal behavior.

The propensity to steal money to buy pot would be no higher than the propensity to steal money or commit other crimes to fund any other recreational activity (drinking, movies, video games).  

All associated crimes of distribution, selling, gang territory, and other "criminal elements" would be eliminated.

Please explain.

I'm not trying to be coy, I really don't see how legalizing marijuana would increase crime.  Unless you subscribe to the "addicted baby killer pot" rhetoric of the 1950 and 60's.  Which leads us to...

4) Addiction.

Yes, it has been shown than lab rats will self administer THC.  They will also self administer alcohol, nicotine, caffeine, prosaic/xanax,  and sugar pills (really really).  If that is our basis for banning it, then lets start in on the list and get rid of all the above.

Likewise, in a self-reported study (read: worst kind, but because we can not actual fund marijuana research the only kind we get) users of tobacco and marijuana gave one or the other up.  Both reported similar withdrawal symptoms.  The study concluded they have the same addictive nature.

I take great objection to the both the methodology of and conclusion of the study:  asking someone to "describe your withdrawal symptoms" is a loaded question and would likely illicit typical reprogram responses.  Furthermore, for people who smoke cigarettes, the activity usually accompanies marijuana use.  Hence, less pot smoking would mean less nicotine intake.

Nonetheless, accepting the study on face value - the people in the study smoked marijuana at least 25 times each month.  Certainly enough to be considered heavy usage.  Most activities that puts chemicals of any kind in to your system on a regular basis would be deemed active - morning coffee, sugary cereals, or even exercise.  

I smoke an occasional cigar.  Probably about as often as I would smoke pot should I be inclined to.  Perhaps while out camping, or a cool summer evening on my porch, or at a bachelor party I'll break out some decent cigars.  Yet I remain un-addicted even though the addictive nature of tobacco is well known.  YET, if I smoked 25 Cigars a month I SURELY would be.

I go gambling on occasion.  Certainly an activity that has no positive social effects outside of recreation but a huge potential negative.  People get addicted, it ruins families, it can cause crime.  Yet I have not done any of those.

I accept the premise that someone who smokes marijuana to get high 25 times a month is probably mentally, socially, and physically addicted.  That premise simply does not concern me enough to classify pot as a substance on par with heroine.

5) Your experience as an officer is skewed.

Everyone you have seen with marijuana is a criminal. Without exception.  Your experience with marijuana is generally catching people with it who are otherwise doing something wrong:  People arrest for crimes that have possession.  People who have a drug problem.  People who are involved with gangs and/or transporting and selling drugs for profit.  Generally found or discovered in relation to some other crime (how many times do you set out to bust a pot smoker?).

Hence, you associate marijuana with the negative connotation in which you experience it.

If all I saw of alcohol use was in an ICU, addiction treatment center, or use by gang members and underage kids I would assume it could only be evil.  But my experience is broader and more varied with alcohol.  Unfortunately, all the responsible marijuana users are the ones you DON'T SEE.  By definition, you only see the ones that are criminals.


- - - - -

Basically, all the reasons you are giving to support your contention can be pointed at a glut of other substances.  Notably alcohol, caffeine, and tobacco, but many others as well.  Like so many things it is possible to abuse it.

The possibility of abuse, or negative consequences of over use, or even the possibility of physical harm from recreational use is NOT a reason to make or keep it illegal.  If it is, the label applies to just about everything we do for recreation, many prescription medications, and a dizzying array of household products that can be abused.

SO, I have a set of honest questions:

1) what is the harm of the use of marijuana in a manner similar to the responsible use of alcohol (which includes occasional drunkenness), tobacco, or gambling?

2) As a law officer, do you feel the war on marijuana use has been effective?  If so, please explain why usage rates and "triers" have remained steady and what is being done to remedy that.

3) Please explain the pitfalls and benefits you can see of legalized marijuana, and what restrictions you might think would enable that possibility.

and 4) What, if any, basis, finding, or discovery would change your mind?   (essentially trying to find the root of your objection:  addiction, health risks, crime)



[sorry to be long winded, trying to be comprehensive]

[Jonette]

Wooooooooohoooooooooooo!!!! Cannon Fodder!!!

Well said...well said.




Have a nice day!

[]

[nathanm]

quote:Originally posted by MH2010


I make alot of marijuana arrests. Alcohol and marijuana are completely two different animals when it comes to use, addiction and recovery.

Yeah, marijuana isn't physically addictive. (although it can be psychologically addictive, as can any habit, all the way down to biting your nails)

With alcohol, you get both the physical and psychological addiction, with the added bonus of physical withdrawal so severe it can literally kill a heavy drinker to go cold turkey.

They are indeed quite different.