Tulsa Gaza Violence Protest

[TulsaFan-inTexas]

I have an honest and sincere question. Who, was the wise guy that decided to plop a Jewish state smack dab into the middle of a bunch of people that have hated their guts since Biblical times?

Seriously, why couldn't they have petitioned the US or another country to donate some land; it would seem to have solved a ton of problems.

[Ed W]

It's another shameful epoch in our history.  None of the Great Powers wanted them, so as Tim pointed out, armed men wearing blue helmets put them in Palestine.  This was years after armed men with coal scuttle helmets put them in the Warsaw ghetto.  And now we have armed Israelis (dunno about their helmets) putting Palestinians behind a wall in the Gaza strip.  Maybe having more guns than the other guy provides the justification for their actions.

[TulsaFan-inTexas]

quote:Originally posted by MichaelBates

quote:Originally posted by swake

Hamas is no longer a terrorist organization. They are a functional and in fact freely elected government of the independent state entity that known is as Gaza. They have territory, security forces and a citizenry that they are responsible for the safety and well-being of.

In continually firing rockets and sending suicide bombers into a neighboring state they are not committing acts of terrorism, they are committing acts of war.

quote:

==> Of course, Israel should exist! But why should this be at the expense of the Palestinians' quality of life? Why park Gaza within a wall like a huge prison, declare embargo, separate its inhabitants from the rest of the world, and condemn a whole population to starve away from the international gaze?

Hamas has as it's stated goal the complete destruction of Israel. Israel pulled out of Gaza ceding control to the Palestinians but the terrorist attacks never stopped. Hamas then won some elections and violently drove out the rival Fatah movement taking complete control of Gaza. At that point Gaza became a state under the control of Hamas but and they never stopped attacking Israel which led to the Israeli blockade of Gaza and now bombing. It's not that complicated.

Israel's response may not be proportional, but it is certainly justified.

If the criminal drug gangs won elections in Mexico and started lobbing crude rockets into El Paso and Brownsville what kind of response do you think the United States would have?

Well said, swake.

I'll second that comment. Well said Swake.

[Wrinkle]

One of these days, a Palestinian will arise who is smart enough to understand the situation and find a way to communicate to his/her people how they have been used by Arabs for decades, who have managed to make them believe all their ills come from Israel.

Had Arabs taken care of their own, Palestinians would not be dependent upon Israel for their well being, or need to cry and moan when they don't provide for them.

The contrast couldn't be more apparent.

[tim huntzinger]

quote:Originally posted by MichaelBates

quote:Originally posted by swake

Hamas is no longer a terrorist organization. They are a functional and in fact freely elected government of the independent state entity that known is as Gaza. They have territory, security forces and a citizenry that they are responsible for the safety and well-being of.

In continually firing rockets and sending suicide bombers into a neighboring state they are not committing acts of terrorism, they are committing acts of war.

quote:

==> Of course, Israel should exist! But why should this be at the expense of the Palestinians' quality of life? Why park Gaza within a wall like a huge prison, declare embargo, separate its inhabitants from the rest of the world, and condemn a whole population to starve away from the international gaze?

Hamas has as it's stated goal the complete destruction of Israel. Israel pulled out of Gaza ceding control to the Palestinians but the terrorist attacks never stopped. Hamas then won some elections and violently drove out the rival Fatah movement taking complete control of Gaza. At that point Gaza became a state under the control of Hamas but and they never stopped attacking Israel which led to the Israeli blockade of Gaza and now bombing. It's not that complicated.

Israel's response may not be proportional, but it is certainly justified.

If the criminal drug gangs won elections in Mexico and started lobbing crude rockets into El Paso and Brownsville what kind of response do you think the United States would have?

Well said, swake.

See? If Michael can compliment Swake, the Gazans and Israelis should be able to get along just fine!

[Red Arrow]

Other cultures are becoming very adept at manipulating Western Civilization.

Start a war, declaring you will wipe your enemy off the face of the earth forever. Lose the war in less than a week and then complain the enemy stole your lands.

Hide munitions in places where civilians go because it is against western treaties to hurt civilians.  Also applies to places of worship. If the places are bombed and destroyed, be sure to point out only the civilian losses.

Declare a truce, to rebuild your weapons supplies.  Complain about the blockade making those supplies more difficult to obtain.

Lob a few rockets across the border then complain about the agressive neighbors when they respond.


Who was there first?

Hand pick a date and any of the locals can claim to have been there first.  Islam didn't exist during what are usually called Biblical times so Muslims as a religious group are relatively newcomers.  Their ancestors have, of course been there since Biblical times.

WWII was a few years before my time so I have to depend on history. I believe the Arabs were generally on the side of the Axis powers.  They lost.  Relative to Germany and Japan, I think the Middle East got off light for being on the losing side of a major war. The winners usually carve up the real estate.  Sometimes this leads to new wars in a generation or so.

I expect most Palestinians and Israelies want the fighting to stop.  A few militants imposing their will on the masses have made that impossible to achieve, so far.

Disclaimer:  I get my news from the mainstream  US Media. I rarely listen to Fox News or the talking heads on radio. I got my history lessons from Public schools.

[waterboy]

FWIW, I don't think the "Arabs" were Axis members. They had no well organized armies, and their oil resources were not well developed either. They had been dominated by British colonialists.  Germans wiped out their primitive cavalry troops with air attacks and pretty much did what they wanted in the area. The Axis powers only perceived value in the MidEast for shipping routes and defensive perimeters. And a pathway to African mineral resources.

Whatever has happened over there in the last century, war has not been the answer to their issues. It won't be this time either. The table was set after WWII when the area was carved up with little regard to religious and cultural differences. The Christian countries who stood by while the holocaust was unfolding in the late thirties, then ignored concentration camp rumors during the war had no interest in solving centuries old conflicts between Jews and Arabs. They simply didn't think it out. Russia and Communism was a bigger concern.

This knee jerk support of Americans of a pretty militaristic society is wrong. We should be skeptical and press for peace. The rest of the world sees this war as typical Israeli overkill and seems able to recognize that the subjugation of Gaza would inevitably lead to demagogues who would lead moderate Palestinians into tragedy. Hamas has done just that. They fed their people, they fixed their utilities and they got elected. Now their ignorant racism is in power and the innocent will suffer. Palestininans were screwed either way.

The Israelis chose a rather convenient time to respond to those erratic missile lobs don't you think? Be cynical and be skeptical. The Israelis certaily are.

[akupetsky]

quote:Originally posted by Ed W

It's another shameful epoch in our history.  None of the Great Powers wanted them, so as Tim pointed out, armed men wearing blue helmets put them in Palestine.  This was years after armed men with coal scuttle helmets put them in the Warsaw ghetto.  And now we have armed Israelis (dunno about their helmets) putting Palestinians behind a wall in the Gaza strip.  Maybe having more guns than the other guy provides the justification for their actions.

The blue helmets had nothing to do with it, although it was the UN Security Council that formalized the British-initiated process of legitimizing the movement of Jewish people to Palestine and their struggles with the population that was there at the time.  Who owns that land can't be determined by pure power because that leads to an unstable situation in which one side oppresses the other, leading to insurgency and worldwide condemnation.  It can't be determined by history and religion, because there are always going to be two or more "correct" views on this.  The only legitimate way to resolve the issue is via the UN Security Council resolutions establishing land for Israel and land for Palestine, and any negotiated agreement to modify those prescriptions.  The solution is out there and has already been enunciated by Israel's Prime Minister (including a land connection between Gaza and the West Bank).  Unfortunately, neither he nor Palestinian President Abbas have the votes to implement it, mostly because Hamas and other groups keep firing missiles at Israel, casting doubt on the ability and willingness of a state of Palestine to ensure Israel's security.  I don't think Israel is interested anymore in playing policeman in occupied territories - they correctly realize that they cannot count on the support of the United States or others if they continue doing this.  But they can't agree on a negotiated solution that would keep them at the mercy of a hostile state (or quasi-state) with missiles capable of destroying Israel.

[Red Arrow]

They may not have been Axis members but they preferred the Axis over the Allies. I can understand why they didn't care for the British. Agreed, oil was not much of an issue until after WWII.

The Israelies have a clouded past but that doesn't make the present Arab/Palestinian attitude any more acceptable. Why is it that the rest of the Arab world doesn't want the Palestinians either.  What about the brotherhood of religion? I believe that if the Palestinians stop shooting rockets that the Israelies will agree to some kind of end to hostilities.  The Palestinians have proven many times that they want to keep shooting rockets and sending suicide bombers. Even Christians will only take so many slaps on the face before getting angry.  If you slap my face, I respond by only slapping your face, and you keep slapping my face, maybe a hit with a 2x4 upside your head will get your attention. It reminds me a bit of an original Star Trek episode where two neighboring worlds had refined war to an acceptable level. When the sirens went off, the designated people went to the disingration chamber.  It was an accepted way of life.  Then Capt. Kirk made them face the real horrors of real war and they came to an agreement.  Perhaps the Palestinians and Israelies need to step it up a notch to see the stupidity of both their ways.    Three major religions have claims to the area. It would be impossible to carve up the area to please everyone.  

I don't so much believe that the Israelies chose the time as it happened. Perhaps the length of the cease fire was set up by Hamas to coincide with US change of power to make the Israelies look opportunistic.  Do not underrate either side.

[cannon_fodder]

Ignoring the longer history (since both sides took the land through violence in history)... isn't the short history of the current weeks fighting something like this:

1. Israel calls off ground offensive into Gaza in exchange for guarantee of no more rocket fire.

2. Hamas sporadically fires rockets targeting civilians in Israel (bears repeating that the rockets are not accurate to designate a target, just an area).

3. Israel delivers an ultimatum to stop

4. Hamas fires a barrage of rockets

5. Israel sends air strikes against the mobile launchers

6. Hamas fires large barrages of rockets targeting civilians in Israel

7. Israel bombs Hamas headquarters, check points, weapons depots, and mobile launches causing significant collateral damage.

8. Hamas fires larger barrages of rockets targeting civilians in Israel.

9. Israel invades Hamas held territory on the ground.
- - - -

I try desperately to understand the picture in the larger context, but in this instance what would you have done as Israel?  What benefit did Hamas hope to gain from launching rockets into Israel other-than killing civilians, gaining praise from terrorist groups, and provoking a response?  Frankly, if Hamas targeted Israeli soldiers, check points, and military installations instead of schools, pizza parlors, and buses they would be worthy of more consideration.

Israel is reactionary.  The generation that currently lives there of BOTH groups has as much a right as the other to be there.  Whenever one of the groups attacks another of the groups they should expect a response.  From my perspective, and correct my ignorance if I am wrong, the last decade has been Israel making a concession or calling off an attack in exchange for peace... followed about a year later by car bombings, rocket attacks, or suicide bombs on buses, markets, or temples.  

Then Israel over reactions...

Crappy deal for all the 'normal' people involved.  I spoke to a "reserve" (I guess all former officers are reserve for a very long time) Israeli major yesterday who is going to school at TU and is worried that he will get called back.  I'm sure there are plenty of Israeli's in fear of rocket attacks, Palestinians scared of occupation and areal bombardment, and other poor bastards stuck in the middle.

If both stupid sides would realize MOST the other side wants the exact same thing the "penis waiving"  (mine's bigger/tougher than yous is!) could stop and people could go back to school/work and getting on with their lives.

[Hometown]

Britain and Europe have also strongly protested Israel's actions.  If you keep your eye on this issue over time you will notice that the U.S. is frequently Israel's sole supporter.  I know the U.S. is very close to Israel, and that many U.S. Citizens are strong supporters of Israel, but that support is long overdue for a cost benefit analysis.  

All Israeli's are not cut from the same cloth.  Did you know many Israeli soldiers refuse to serve in the West Bank and Gaza?  

Israeli hawks have been in charge for some time, much to everyone's detriment.  We lost a great peacemaker with the assassination of Rabin.  It's time for the peacemakers to take charge in Israel again.

Bush has given Israel a green light and a blank check and they are taking advantage of this policy in his final days.

[cannon_fodder]

FYI, selective failure to serve is illegal in Israel.  You can get out of the mandatory conscription in several ways, usually pacifism on religious grounds, but they require alternative service.  If you join the army, you can not select NOT to serve in Gaza, the West Bank, or in any other capacity.  Failure to do so is illegal and will be met with imprisonment and dishonorable discharge (a BIG deal in a country with mandatory conscription where 90% of the population serves and is honorably discharged).  

In other words, the numbers are very small and "many" would be an exaggeration.  But yes, I am aware it happens.

I am also aware that the US often stands by Israel when others will not.  Both to our credit and shame.  And I agree that Israel is taking care of this "problem" while they can with a blank check.

However, the "hawks" are not in charge in Israel.  The current administration has continued to merge Jerusalem, dismantle settlements, withdraw troops from Gaza, and otherwise attempt to normalize relations with all parties but those still shooting rockets at them.  Definitely not peace-niks, but the current administration is not well liked by the Israeli Religious Right or the "hawks" who would occupy most of the territory won in the 1968 war, reestablish and expand the settlements, and expel non-Jews from the core of Israel.

I admit I identify more closely with the Israeli's for some reason, but neither side has mundi manus in this situation.  

[Hometown]

Our financial and political support of Israel is at the core of the Arab World's hatred of the U.S.  Believe it or not, some people in the U.S. haven't paid much attention to the issue and don't know this fact.

[cannon_fodder]

Believe it or not, if we  cut off support of Israel, pulled all our troops Iraq, Afghanistan, and all the Middle East... they would still shout DEATH TO AMERICA and hate us just as much.  They need to have some great enemy to bolster their illusion of power.  Gotta hate someone, and as the strongest nation the USA is the target.


Meanwhile:

quote:
Fighting intensified on the northern outskirts of Gaza City yesterday as a Hamas leader warned that the Islamists would kill Jewish children anywhere in the world in revenge for Israel's devastating assault.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5454204.ece

Such comments make it really hard for me to have any support for Hamas.  

quote:Mr Zahar made his first appearance since Israel launched its offensive. Dressed in a dark suit, he declared: "Victory is coming, God willing."

Really, if God decides wars it is VERY clear he favors the God of Israel over the God of Islam (same God, I realize the irony).

[Townsend]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

quote:Mr Zahar made his first appearance since Israel launched its offensive. Dressed in a dark suit, he declared: "Victory is coming, God willing."

Really, if God decides wars it is VERY clear he favors the God of Israel over the God of Islam (same God, I realize the irony).

You think He makes that decision the same way we would have to decide which child to place the oxygen mask on first during an airplane emergency?  Choose your favorite before takeoff.