Separation between church and state

[Fatstrat]

No apology needed. Your graph actually helps my point. Your argument has some valid points. While it is true that the founders were against mandated govt. religion. It is also true that the words "Separation of Church and State" appear nowhere in the Constitution.
They were written in a letter by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptists in 1802. IMO hardly more valid than Washington's pro religious statements in his earlier, Govt. function,  Farewell Address to the nation.
Also your argument that the religious motto's used on U.S. money etc. are generic, is really reaching. You, me and any other sensible person knows perfectly well what God it refers to. And to say differently is nothing less than a ridiculous attempt to re-write history.
To the graph.The U.S. is a Christian nation because as the graph illustrates, it just is. The American people are by vast majority of the Christian religion. And vote for representatives of common belief. Religion is a common factor in elections. Being a Mormon no doubt hurt Romney. (BTW, Have you ever been to Utah? I submit that Utah is completely run by the LDS church.) And if Obama had claimed Islam as his primary religion, he would NOT be POTUS today.
So regardless of what the founders intended in the Constitution, the U.S. by practice is and has always been a Christian nation.

[Townsend]

Establishment Clause of the First Amendment

http://topics.law.cornell.edu/wex/First_amendment

The freedoms provided by this means no preferential treatment to any religion.

Your pomposity is a very good reason for many of us to look down on your vision of faith.

[Fatstrat]

quote:Originally posted by Townsend

Establishment Clause of the First Amendment

http://topics.law.cornell.edu/wex/First_amendment

The freedoms provided by this means no preferential treatment to any religion.

Your pomposity is a very good reason for many of us to look down on your vision of faith.

Pomposity? I merely see the facts as they are. Rather than how some think they should be.
I agree 100% that the Constitution states that there be no mandated religion. And there is not, and has not been. Nonetheless the United States is, and has always been, a Christian nation. Regardless of if you like it or not.

[Townsend]

quote:Originally posted by Fatstrat
Nonetheless the United States is, and has always been, a Christian nation. Regardless of if you like it or not.

A nation with Christians.  Not a Christian nation.

[Hoss]

quote:Originally posted by Townsend

quote:Originally posted by Fatstrat
Nonetheless the United States is, and has always been, a Christian nation. Regardless of if you like it or not.

A nation with Christians.  Not a Christian nation.

Exactly.  One infers a theocracy.  The other denotes content.  If you go by demographics, the US of A contains 88.3 percent self prescribed Christians, 3.5 percent other, and 8.4 percent reported as atheist/agnostic/none.

So how would you explain your so-called 'Christian Nation' then?  Is it an '88.3 percent Christian Nation'?

[Cats Cats Cats]

"As evidenced by the Christian motto's on our money"  In God We Trust was added to coins around the Civil War and added to paper money in the late 50's.  Not at first.  I am assuming we don't need to go into Under God in the pledge.

I would also like to point out that a reference to "God" is not a determination of as specific faith.  It does however limit the references to monotheistic religions.  Hopefully we don't go to old testament laws.  I will pray for that!

[cannon_fodder]

The American people are by vast majority Caucasian. And vote for representatives very often of common race. Race is a common factor in elections.  We were founded ENTIRELY by white males.  Business and governmental culture are the culture of white society.  It is ingrained in our society, culture and government.  If Obama had claimed "BLACK MAN" as his primary identifier (with all the social stereotypes that entails) he would NOT be POTUS today.

Ergo, we are a WHITE NATION. So regardless of what the founders intended in the Constitution, the U.S. by practice is and has always been a white nation.

/see what I did there?  


Just to be clear fats,

Are you proposing that the religion of the majority should rule?

Please state what marriage of church and state you would like to see.  A full theocracy?  Just some laws based on the Bible?  National Institute of Science research based on the Bible?  Please, in all honesty, state what you would desire if you were not constrained by the intent of the founders or the Constitution.

[Cats Cats Cats]

Works for Iran, Iraq, and Afghanistan.  Should work for us right?

[Red Arrow]

I have to agree with a nation of Christians, not a Christian nation.

Word order can be very important in the English language.

[Neptune]

I agree too, all churches should be moved out of state.

[Fatstrat]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

The American people are by vast majority Caucasian. And vote for representatives very often of common race. Race is a common factor in elections.  We were founded ENTIRELY by white males.  Business and governmental culture are the culture of white society.  It is ingrained in our society, culture and government.  If Obama had claimed "BLACK MAN" as his primary identifier (with all the social stereotypes that entails) he would NOT be POTUS today.

Ergo, we are a WHITE NATION. So regardless of what the founders intended in the Constitution, the U.S. by practice is and has always been a white nation.

/see what I did there?  


Just to be clear fats,

Are you proposing that the religion of the majority should rule?

Please state what marriage of church and state you would like to see.  A full theocracy?  Just some laws based on the Bible?  National Institute of Science research based on the Bible?  Please, in all honesty, state what you would desire if you were not constrained by the intent of the founders or the Constitution.

I haven't said that I want a theocracy.  I have only said that since the citizens of the U.S. are, and always have been predominantly Christian. And our govt.is a govt (supposedly) BY, FOR and OF THE PEOPLE. That the U.S. has historically always been a Christian nation governed BY Christians in a decidedly Christian manner. Could there be a BETTER definition of "Christian Nation"? And that the words "separation of church and state" appear nowhere in our Constitution. The government has not mandated any religion, but certainly has reflected the religious values of the people it governs. And that this is completely legal.  
And now some, what 12% of the population don't like it? And use the words written to the Danbury Baptists, many years after the Constitution was written, as false Constitutional proof of their argument. It simply doesn't fly.

[Townsend]

quote:Originally posted by Fatstrat

I haven't said that I want a theocracy.  I have only said that since the citizens of the U.S. are, and always have been predominantly Christian. And our govt.is a govt (supposedly) BY, FOR and OF THE PEOPLE. That the U.S. has historically always been a Christian nation governed BY Christians in a decidedly Christian manner. Could there be a BETTER definition of "Christian Nation"? And that the words "separation of church and state" appear nowhere in our Constitution. The government has not mandated any religion, but certainly has reflected the religious values of the people it governs. And that this is completely legal.  
And now some, what 12% of the population don't like it? And use the words written to the Danbury Baptists, many years after the Constitution was written, as false Constitutional proof of their argument. It simply doesn't fly.

Woo, Just choose to ignore anything but your own thoughts huh Fats?  If it doesn't fit into your own beliefs it doesn't exist.  Your contributions are worthless.

[cannon_fodder]

So what do you want?

It is very hard to debate anything when you ignore major issues I raise and just reiterate your talking points.  

"Freedom of Speech" is nowhere in the Constitution.  There is no right to privacy. No where does it apply the Bill of Rights to States.  There is no authority for medicare, medicaid, section 8, title 19...  There is no clause of the majority of executive agencies.  Again, if you are gearing your argument to the fact that "those words don't appear" then we had better tear down the government we have and start over.

Please, just tell me what you are trying to say.  

We are a nation of mostly Christians?  Sure. Sounds great.  How does that change the status quo?  Do we need Roseries in schools?  Crosses in every courtroom?

I don't know how else to say it.  What's your point?  What about the status quo do you want changed?

[Listening]

"I have to agree with a nation of Christians, not a Christian nation.

Word order can be very important in the English language." - Red Arrow


+1

[nathanm]

quote:Originally posted by Neptune

I agree too, all churches should be moved out of state.

Perhaps they could move to Guam, since that's only a territory. []