The Stimulus Package Unleashed

[Wilbur]

It's funny.  How many people have you heard on tv, here in this forum, .....  who say this isn't the perfect bill, or, this isn't the best bill, or, it could be better, or, ..... ?

Now, how many people have said the opposite?  If everyone agrees this isn't the best bill, then what on earth are we doing?

[rwarn17588]

quote:Originally posted by Wilbur

It's funny.  How many people have you heard on tv, here in this forum, .....  who say this isn't the perfect bill, or, this isn't the best bill, or, it could be better, or, ..... ?

Now, how many people have said the opposite?  If everyone agrees this isn't the best bill, then what on earth are we doing?

Do you really think legislation is ever passed where *everyone* is 100 percent happy with it? Can you think of one?

Not everyone was happy with the U.S. Constitution when it was drafted, either. Yet, 230 years later, here we are.

Striving for perfect legislation is admirable.  Holding out for perfect legislation is pure folly.

[Gaspar]

This is downright hilarious now.

David Obey (D-Wis.) has snuck a little gem into the supplemental budget bill (no one is really calling this a "stimulus" any more).

Here's his little safeguard:
"insert in the Congressional Record not later than Feb. 4, 2009, such material as he may deem explanatory of appropriations measures for the fiscal year 2009."

Feb 4 is the day that the bill takes the floor, and what this does is allow anyone to tag additional earmarks to the bill without time to review or add explanatory language.

Rep. Jeff Flake (R-Ariz.) anticipates an additional 4,000 earmarks to be added to the bill by Democrats, and if this phrase is accepted as part of the bill, passage will have to take place without review or explanation of any of them.

It's estimated that an additional $4 Billion in pet projects will be tagged to the $900 Billion of reported pet projects.

It's like watching a car wreck in slow motion.

[we vs us]

quote:Originally posted by Gaspar
It's estimated that an additional $4 Billion in pet projects will be tagged to the $900 Billion of reported pet projects.

So is the whole thing-- including tax cuts -- now considered a pet project?

[rwarn17588]

And $4 billion (which is *estimated*) is less than one-half of 1 percent of the total package.

That's hardly what what I would call scandalous.

And the demonization of earmarks in general is a joke. There are good earmarks and bad earmarks. To lump them all into Satan's Spawn is dishonest.

[joiei]

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

quote:Originally posted by Wilbur

It's funny.  How many people have you heard on tv, here in this forum, .....  who say this isn't the perfect bill, or, this isn't the best bill, or, it could be better, or, ..... ?

Now, how many people have said the opposite?  If everyone agrees this isn't the best bill, then what on earth are we doing?

Do you really think legislation is ever passed where *everyone* is 100 percent happy with it? Can you think of one?

Not everyone was happy with the U.S. Constitution when it was drafted, either. Yet, 230 years later, here we are.

Striving for perfect legislation is admirable.  Holding out for perfect legislation is pure folly.

Plus, what you consider as perfect legislation just might be imperfect and immoral in my opinion.  Democracy, I love it and wouldn't want anything else.  I figure it helps keep my blood pressure pumping.  America my way, not so much, America OUR way, of course and always.  The 'our' includes everyone that I feel is total idiots because they do not believe exactly like I do, inspite of myself I respect that citizen to have their opinion.  I even include my brother-in-law the F*x N*w* fanatic in this group. Billie OMG and Sean Insannity are his bests friend according to my sister.

[Gaspar]

quote:Originally posted by we vs us

quote:Originally posted by Gaspar
It's estimated that an additional $4 Billion in pet projects will be tagged to the $900 Billion of reported pet projects.

So is the whole thing-- including tax cuts -- now considered a pet project?

So is the whole thing-- including tax rebates -- now considered a pet project?

Fixed it for ya.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

And $4 billion (which is *estimated*) is less than one-half of 1 percent of the total package.

That's hardly what what I would call scandalous.

And the demonization of earmarks in general is a joke. There are good earmarks and bad earmarks. To lump them all into Satan's Spawn is dishonest.

The funniest term I've heard for this bill so far is "The Porkulous Package".  It actually would be funny if it weren't such a fitting name.  It only takes one cursory glance to see that the areas deemed worthy of re-igniting the economy read like a payback list for the DNC and to a far lesser extent the RNC.

The fact is, no one seems to agree on how best to jump-start the economy.  The best advice I've heard so far is to keep gov't out of it and allow it to seek it's natural "bottom".

Sure just $4 B in additional earmarks this bill, but what about every other bill that gets earmarks attached?  It adds up to a serious deficit after awhile.  It's pretty sick that we've become so desensitized to how much $1 B is.

"It's only 4 billion dollars..."

[we vs us]

State will receive $465 million for highway projects if the stimulus passes, according to the World.  

quote: OKLAHOMA CITY - The Oklahoma Department of Transportation estimates that the state will receive some $465 million for highway transportation projects once the federal government passes an economic stimulus package, officials said Monday.

The highway improvements package awarded to the state is expected to create more than 15,000 private-sector jobs, said Gary Ridley, ODOT director.

Ridley said, however, that the expected package, which Congress is debating this week, was far less than what department officials had wanted.

In recent months, department staff members and engineering consultants identified 180 highway transportation projects across the state, totaling $1.1 billion.

"We were a little disappointed," Ridley said.

Of the expected $465 million the state would receive, about $330 million would be set aside for projects on ODOT-maintained roads. The remaining $135 million would fund highway projects for individual cities, counties or municipal groups, such as INCOG.

Ridley said the department also expects an additional $33 million for public transportation projects.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by we vs us

State will receive $465 million for highway projects if the stimulus passes, according to the World.  

quote: OKLAHOMA CITY - The Oklahoma Department of Transportation estimates that the state will receive some $465 million for highway transportation projects once the federal government passes an economic stimulus package, officials said Monday.

The highway improvements package awarded to the state is expected to create more than 15,000 private-sector jobs, said Gary Ridley, ODOT director.

Ridley said, however, that the expected package, which Congress is debating this week, was far less than what department officials had wanted.

In recent months, department staff members and engineering consultants identified 180 highway transportation projects across the state, totaling $1.1 billion.

"We were a little disappointed," Ridley said.

Of the expected $465 million the state would receive, about $330 million would be set aside for projects on ODOT-maintained roads. The remaining $135 million would fund highway projects for individual cities, counties or municipal groups, such as INCOG.

Ridley said the department also expects an additional $33 million for public transportation projects.

I think someone at the state DOT stole the Metro Chamber jobs calculator.  I'd like to see a break-down of how that is going to create 15,000 jobs.  You can't arrive at those numbers without a lot of voodoo economics (the people who explore, produce, and refine oil, equipment manufacturers, raw material and commodity suppliers, QT clerks to sell construction workers soda and Hotzies, etc.).  

You are talking extreme muliplicative (is that even a word?) spending and money growth to make that happen.  Not even taking into account construction materials, vehicles, right-of-way purchases, engineering, distribution of pork to the various groups like INCOG, simple division says that's $31,000 per person in that 15,000 new jobs figure.  Subtract the employment costs from that $31,000 per and you are talking on average of somewhere around $20K per year net.  Not exactly high-end or even mid-middle class.

I'm not saying I don't want the money spent in Oklahoma.  I'm just saying the blue sky they are selling this with is absurd.  I sense though they have to attach some sort of feel good job creation number to show how Congress and the Admin are going to create 2.5mm to 3mm jobs.  I also have a funny feeling Tulsa will get the crumbs after OKC gets the lion's share of the package.

The nature of construction is such that many of these wouldn't be new jobs created, just more projects ahead for many already working in the construction, engineering, and related fields.  

[Gaspar]

I see in all of today's reports and most of the networks that they are shifting responsibility for this bill.  They have begun to build up the scape-goat.  Senate Finance Chairman Max Baucus of Montana is being called "The Architect of The Stimulus Bill."

No big reports of his "architecture" before, but as this porculus begins to sour, the administration has "nominated" this poor sap.  The media is building him up and shifting the focus from the president or his staff today.  

In 3 months, when it's time to ask the people for a Stimulus Bill rather than a Budgetary Spending Bill Baucus will be "Roved" out of Washington.

Unbelievably clever.  Bush attempted to do this with Rove (at Rove's advice) but couldn't pull it off because the media knew better.  President Obama seems to have the media in his pocket, and they are shifting praise for this bill immediately to Baucus without question.  

Quite a spectacle. I wonder if Baucus knows the number of the bus that's about to hit him?


They are referring to it as (#warning# Talking Points Ahead):
Montana's senior U.S. Senator Max Baucus' plan to get America's economy moving again.

and another:

During debate over his Economic Recovery Package, Montana's senior U.S. Senator and chairman of the Senate Finance Committee Max Baucus told the committee his stimulus provisions would "position our economy to be more competitive."

I'll keep posting them as they appear before tomorrow's vote.

[cannon_fodder]

Conan, the math is worse than that... (disclaimer that I haven't seen a study on this, just seems off to me)

$465mil / 15000 is $31,000 per job.  You need to factor out equipment & materials costs (only a portion of which will create or maintain any jobs ), profit for every level, administration costs in government, and THEN your various taxes and fees.

Lets pretend we have a 85% efficiency, only 15% wasted by the government.

Lets pretend materials and equipment costs are another 15% loss (85% ends up going to create jobs).

Profit is another 15% (at all levels, not 15% on the end construction but the equipment maker, the quarry, etc.) and that doesn't create jobs.

So $465mil * .85 *.85 *.85 = $285mil in the pockets of workers.  Or a cash salary of $19,000 per job - now that could reflect $40,000 for 7,500 primary jobs and $20,000 towards 1/2 of another 7,500 (or 3,750 jobs), and on down the line ('support' jobs).  

I don't care how you do the math, the economics seem a bit ridiculous.  The way they come up the number is to take the expenditures multiplied by a number on a chart (road building #), that is supposed to extrapolate the number of jobs created by the project and recirculation of the cash disbursements.  I would LOVE to see follow up work performed to see what actually happens.

Perhaps my mocking is out of place, but I'm with Conan that the numbers seem off to me.  Someone find a reputable study that confirms the numbers and I'll buy it.  I might just be uninformed.

[guido911]

Folks, it's worse than we thought. According to Pelosi we are losing 500 MILLION jobs a month:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8hMJVXt09E

I wonder if all 57 states are affected:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpGH02DtIws


[}:)]

[Red Arrow]

quote:Originally posted by guido911

Folks, it's worse than we thought. According to Pelosi we are losing 500 MILLION jobs a month:

She must be including illegal immigrants,  Mexico, Canada, Europe....

I thought the population of the USA was about 300 Million.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by guido911

Folks, it's worse than we thought. According to Pelosi we are losing 500 MILLION jobs a month:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8hMJVXt09E

I wonder if all 57 states are affected:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpGH02DtIws


[}:)]

That little piece of communist work is probably counting China and Russia in her figures.

[}:)]