Pearl District Pork

[MDepr2007]

if you buy out the homes anyway , why spend more money for flood control that isn't needed after buying the homes?
There are enough areas in town that cars flood in their driveway. Money needs spent on those and not prissing up an area we've already ignored and few really care about so a developer can make money off ours.

[dsjeffries]

quote:Originally posted by MDepr2007

if you buy out the homes anyway , why spend more money for flood control that isn't needed after buying the homes?
There are enough areas in town that cars flood in their driveway. Money needs spent on those and not prissing up an area we've already ignored and few really care about so a developer can make money off ours.

You've got to be kidding me. Has inteller hacked into someone's account? Surely no one else can make such ridiculous statements.

[Renaissance]

I think the general solution has been to ignore that one.

I think it looks really cool.  Probably needs more entrepreneurs on board--although that may depend on the city's actual commitment to following through with the infrastructure repair.

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by MDepr2007

if you buy out the homes anyway , why spend more money for flood control that isn't needed after buying the homes?
There are enough areas in town that cars flood in their driveway. Money needs spent on those and not prissing up an area we've already ignored and few really care about so a developer can make money off ours.

They would have to buy up a lot more homes if they didnt put in the water retention ponds. Not to mention the businesses that would be in continual danger of flooding. Remember too, that adding water retention ponds in this area helps mitigate flooding in other areas and neighborhoods downstream by first holding, then more gradually metering out the flood waters. And you would be taking a much larger area out of future development, versus setting the stage for more development in what should really be an important part of the city. The added density alone would help pay for the roads, buyouts and detention projects over time. We need more people per square mile paying for infrastructure not fewer and fewer, often poor  and elderly people, as has been the case in this area for a long time.  Tulsa once had 6,000 people per square mile paying for each square mile of roads, water, etc., Then it went to around 3,000, then down to around 2,000. That area probably has even less trying to pay for all the roads and stuff in that area. Putting more land back into play for growth and setting it up for denser more urban growth will in the long run help the city. Speaking of roads, I believe part of the cost mentioned above includes redoing several of the roads in that area which need to be redone anyway.

[YoungTulsan]

I guess the area being a flood plain would make sense in it not seeing any new development or increase in desirability despite the EXCELLENT location in proximity to not only Downtown, but the other desirable areas such as Brookside, Cherry Street, Utica Square, and TU.

My personal opinion on why the area is avoided is due to the railroad.  The railway is surrounded by dozens of ugly old warehouses, some abandoned, some operational.  The whole area looks industrial, and passed on by time.



But what do you do about that?  I know some of those warehouses are probably productive job and tax revenue sources.  Telling them to get the hell out might not be the best option.  But as long as that section along the railway looks like your one stop location for rusty metal crap and rotten wood, those "urban hipsters" aren't going to be building any "bohemian lofts" nearby.

I know a good place in West Tulsa to put in additional warehouse-type industrial zoneage if you want to offset a loss.  Tear down Garden City next to the refinery.  No one deserves to live next to a stinking refinery anyway.

Just from a satellite view you can see the trail of blight that follows the railway.  Where the railway is embedded into the Broken Arrow Expressway from Lewis to Sheridan is a nice section of uninterrupted residential.  I believe that is a big piece of why midtown is as quaint and livable as it is.



It would be a completely different story with a railroad and industrial warehouses cutting right through the middle of it.

But again, I don't see any easy solution to that, nor do I see that area being extremely desirable without one.

[waterboy]

That's an interesting take YT. There are warehouses along the BA route where spurs come off near the sheridan exit and sure enough those areas are residentially blighted. Consider 36th & Lakewood with nothing but blighted apartments. They are however pretty efficient for those businesses that located near the railroad like furniture, industrial etc.

My impression is that many of the rundown warehouses along the stretch from 13th & Lewis to 3rd and Peoria are prized by small businessmen for their utility and price value. They are cheap to rent if you don't ask much of the landlord. That's why they are not improved much.

That said, the warehouse district there is not much different than the way the old warehouse district in OKC looked back in the 80's before it became Bricktown (sorry to mention that word in mixed company). But it was that same mix of economics and location that spurred that development. I would keep an open mind about whether the three (railroad, warehouses, housing) can co-exist.

[AVERAGE JOE]

YT, those "blighted" areas of today are the prime real estate development opportunities of the future. Bring a light rail system through the area on those tracks and create a stop right in the middle of the "blight" and presto -- transit oriented development. Those abandoned warehouses would be converted to lofts in a heartbeat.

[grahambino]

Blight didn't follow the railroad through Maple Ridge when it was operational.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by grahambino

Blight didn't follow the railroad through Maple Ridge when it was operational.

It wasn't always "Maple Ridge". It was kind of dicey pre 70's when the train still ran through there. Bars on windows, hippies milling about, dilapidated commercial structures. Some areas didn't appear to have much appeal and seemed to have a 50/50 chance at best. The buildings were cheap if you had any vision at all and patience. Betsy Horowitz made the case for saving alot of the property along the old railway including Lee School. That, and the sale of one of the semi-mansions on 18th for a whopping $30,000 in 1975, were turning points in its resurgence. Nothing within the area had ever sold for the cost of a new home in the suburbs.

I think the Pearl area projects are pretty exciting.

[Gaspar]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by grahambino

Blight didn't follow the railroad through Maple Ridge when it was operational.

It wasn't always "Maple Ridge". It was kind of dicey pre 70's when the train still ran through there. Bars on windows, hippies milling about, dilapidated commercial structures. Some areas didn't appear to have much appeal and seemed to have a 50/50 chance at best. The buildings were cheap if you had any vision at all and patience. Betsy Horowitz made the case for saving alot of the property along the old railway including Lee School. That, and the sale of one of the semi-mansions on 18th for a whopping $30,000 in 1975, were turning points in its resurgence. Nothing within the area had ever sold for the cost of a new home in the suburbs.

I think the Pearl area projects are pretty exciting.

Agree.

[TheArtist]

Here are a few more renderings. Courtesy of Guy Engineering.

http://www.guyengr.com/guyengr_files/Page628.htm





West Pond



6th Street showing canal and "living streets" approach. Notice the democratic nature, cars bikes, pedestrians all equal. Sidewalks and streets the same. OMG something new in town. (let the freaking out begin lol [] )    

[OurTulsa]

I truly appreciate a public works project that attempts to transcend its utility.  This project proposal not only serves a public purpose but it becomes an amenity at the same time, much as Centennial Park.  I think the City will see a much higher ROI (Return on Investment) with this method.  This version of the ponds will not only make the area surrounding developable by clearing flood plain challenges but it, I think (ok, hope) will entice investors to buy in to the area (in addition to those who are already putting their money where their mouthes are).

The Pearl is about to become a pilot for a Form Based Code.  That new land use guideline can establish a highly desirable and PREDICTABLE set of outcomes giving investors confidence that their early investments won't be undermined by some get in/get out speculator down the block.

Those in combination with continuing development of our trail system, downtown as a desirable destination, Cherry St., an eventual commuter line on to BA, and TU, the Pearl will be a no brainer for realizing some explosively urban growth...

I was initially concerned with affordability and gentrification of the Pearl but I think there are enough old walk-up apartment buildings (assuming they are preserved) in the neighborhood to provide a decent amount of low/moderate rental units.  Additionally, there are many apartments just to the south in Forest Orchard close enough to contribute to the diversity of the area.

I'm excited about Public Works effort here; although I know that it is in large part a result of the consistent banging from the Pearl District Association.  I hope this becomes a trend in the department's work.  I hope future elements of basic infrastrure are designed in a manner so that they contribute beyond pure utility.  I hope the Pearl ponds and canal happens.

[OurTulsa]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist


6th Street showing canal and "living streets" approach. Notice the democratic nature, cars bikes, pedestrians all equal. Sidewalks and streets the same. OMG something new in town. (let the freaking out begin lol [] )    

If the City of Tulsa is willing to do the woonerf concept on a street that was previously four lanes anywhere near what the concepts suggest I will freak!  Tulsa will earn instant cool points in the world of urban design.  And that street will become the coolest street in town.  It will take many folks around here alot of time to figure out how to share public space but it will become routine eventually (so many still come to a complete stand-still at and in the rotary in 5th/Main).  I am seriously digging it!  

I always thought this street provided the best frame for the downtown skyline!

But, quick, someone get Patric after them on their concept for lighting!!!

[TheArtist]

Yes, I definitely think they want to be smart and do things right here, so I am sure they would be amenable to fixing the lighting situation there. Now is the perfect time to get a change while the details are still being hammered out.

Per Patric, he should proffer his ponderings past the Pearl people pronto. []

[carltonplace]

I really want this to happen.