Downtown as a destination

[cannon_fodder]

Be warned, this is a chicken or the egg argument and a bit of a ramble...

My mother was in town this weekend.  My family and I took her downtown to the Walking with Dinosaurs show (which was very cool, btw).  We wanted to make an evening out of it so with the show starting at 7:30 we went down around 5:30.

First stop:  Joe Mamas.  45-1:00 wait.  Next stop:  El Guapo.  Then McNellies.  All too long of a wait for us to comfortably get to the show.  Blue Dome Diner was closed.  Billy's and Quiznos are closed.  Atlas and Subway - closed.  Tsunami is out of business.  I'm not a fan of Spaghetti warehouse and didn't want to talk over to the Brady anyway.

Knowing there were places to eat inside the BOk center we just want over there and figured we eat in there.

But none of them were open.  Only the regular concession stands were open, none of the restaurant ones.  So it was corn dogs and nachos for supper... not that big of a deal.  But it started me thinking:

It would be nearly impossible to spend an entire day in downtown Tulsa.  In many places you could spend an extra day in your downtown hotel room and go do things (in OKC - to the memorial and the botanical gardens during the day, catch a ball game, a movie, do some shopping and hang out at Bricktown in the evening).  I can't say the same about Tulsa.

Unless you have to work.  Or have a convention.  Or are stuck on jury duty you really can't do much downtown.  No museums.  No parks worth going to.  Little retail and what there is is closed by 6.  After 2pm the number of eateries is halved.  (parking is NOT the problem)

After we left the show my mom commented that if she wanted to get a drink she wouldn't feel comfortable because a nice bar is surrounded by unlit rail lines, abandoned buildings, and dark alleys.  She thought it was very odd that there was nothing near the Center itself, we had to walk 6-10 blocks to the closet place to eat or get a drink.  Even then it was hard to tell where bars were - often not able to see one from the other or a lit path between them. (mock her attitude if you want, but these are the downtown visitors we want to attract)

Unless you are in the know, many people wouldn't walk around downtown Tulsa at night LOOKING for something to do.  In many blocks you'll be the only person, so it's hard to ask.  Even as a local who is downtown a bunch - the bars can still be spread out and ever changing.  It is fun to "discover" new bars, but many out of towners (including people from South Tulsa) don't want to explore dark streets.

Not sure how to wrap this up.  I guess I'm asking if we think the ballpark will liven it up more nights so it will grow.  If more downtown residents as lofts come online will increase the round the clock activity and maybe the retail.  Are there improvements to lighting and "paths" or "A streets" to connect the various areas better?  

Can we develop the Brady district and try to get a hotel and eateries near the BOk Center?

A large topic I know, but having just been downtown with an out of town visitor she pointed out a lot of shortcomings.  Poor lighting, poor distance and direction, odd dead spots, limited selection.  Figured I'd start an updated discussion on the topic since development has been slow lately...

[Gold]

All day drinking binge is something that can occupy you all day long.  Start at Orpha's at 6 am.  [)]

[AVERAGE JOE]

Cannon, everything you suggest is in the works. There is a need for more restaurants downtown for BOK Center events -- the ones that are already open are packed on event nights. The ballpark will help a lot because that's another 70 events a year downtown. Makes it much easier for a restaurant operator to jump in.

The real key will be getting more residential downtown, which will even out demand on nights between events. The good news is that well over 100 units are coming online this year -- Mayo Hotel, Mayo Lofts, First Street Lofts. The Courtyard Hotel will open up in the Atlas Life Building in 2010, which will mean more people downtown.

It's a little thin right now, but I'm guessing that by the end of the first baseball season downtown in 2010, things will have changed rapidly.

[Daniel Wright]

Well Orpha's Lounge is close by the new arena. I am sure your mom would have loved the ambiance![]

[stageidea]

I still feel that without a grocery store and a pharmacy downtown I just don't see how residential will build up.  

I personally would love to move downtown but I just don't see the infrastructure is there as of yet.

[Oil Capital]

quote:Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE



The Courtyard Hotel will open up in the Atlas Life Building in 2010

Will it?  Is that project actually progressing?

[sgrizzle]

But where will they park?




(sorry, had to)

[TURobY]

quote:Originally posted by stageidea

I still feel that without a grocery store and a pharmacy downtown I just don't see how residential will build up.  

I personally would love to move downtown but I just don't see the infrastructure is there as of yet.

Agreed. Would also like to see some row-style housing with small front yards. Enough of a yard to plant a couple of trees or a small garden without having to maintain a full lot.

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by stageidea

I still feel that without a grocery store and a pharmacy downtown I just don't see how residential will build up.  

I personally would love to move downtown but I just don't see the infrastructure is there as of yet.

Usually housing starts coming in first, then the retail. There is just as much grocery and pharmacy, and as close, in many many suburban areas when those new neighborhoods go in.

Will comment more later... going to an eye appt for contacts lol.

[sgrizzle]

quote:Originally posted by TURobY

quote:Originally posted by stageidea

I still feel that without a grocery store and a pharmacy downtown I just don't see how residential will build up.  

I personally would love to move downtown but I just don't see the infrastructure is there as of yet.

Agreed. Would also like to see some row-style housing with small front yards. Enough of a yard to plant a couple of trees or a small garden without having to maintain a full lot.

If I were clear-cutting and rebuilding an area it would be to take out abundant life and the old ballet office on boulder and build a few blocks of row houses there. It would look good and definitely improve the supposed "connector to the river"

[PonderInc]

quote:Originally posted by stageidea

I still feel that without a grocery store and a pharmacy downtown I just don't see how residential will build up.  

I personally would love to move downtown but I just don't see the infrastructure is there as of yet.

This is one of those comments you always hear that I simultaneously understand, and don't understand...

Sure, in an ideal world, we would have a truly urban downtown, where you never needed a car for ANYTHING.  That would be great, and I definitly want it to come true for Tulsa.

However, how many people walk to the grocery store now...even those who live within 1/4 - 1/2 mile of one?  I bet not many.

What matters to people...  Do you love your home?  Are you close to great parks?  Can your kids go to good schools?  Are you conveniently close to dining/entertainment options?  Do you like your neighbors?  Do you have a short commute time to work?  Do you think your neighborhood is attractive?

Judge downtown on these criteria and it's obvious what's missing...we just need more cool places to live downtown!  I agreee that folks who want to live downtown want the pedestrian friendly urban experience.  Just saying: start with unique, urban housing. People will follow.  Services will follow the people.

[cannon_fodder]

+1 on Artist's notion that there is as close retail and grocery to Downtown as many other areas.

Whenever I'm looking at an area the availability of retail etc. is a consideration (OK, I want to be near a bar, but also somewhere I can get milk, Tylenol, etc.).  Huge swaths of residential are not serviced by retail the way Midtown is (on every corner!).  Heck, even the area between 41st to I-44 off of Harvard.  Or the "money belt" area of midtown doesn't have retail access really.  No more so than downtown.

BUT... living downtown generally has the expectation that you won't have to drive many places. Which is where it comes up lacking.  You trade suburban space for such conveniences.  Again, chicken or the egg I suppose.

[forevertulsa89]

Downtown is in a funny little shift right now. It feels like certain anchors are in place, but we are still missing some of the pieces that connect the puzzle. The downtown ballpark and its location really helps to get things a little more connected overall, but it's just going to take time. We ultimately need more local people like those that have put in places like Joe Mama's and McNellie's to take the risk and move down there. I will agree though that as of right now it is very hard to spend more then just a few hours downtown and it is hard to know what eateries are where unless you are familiar with the area. I really think a group like tulsanow should set up some info stands around areas like the BOK center and the PAC passing out downtown lives maps and such to assist and encourage those attending events downtown to go eat in the surrounding districts. If we can show people what's downtown then they will stay there a bit longer.

[kylieosu]

quote:Originally posted by PonderInc

quote:Originally posted by stageidea

I still feel that without a grocery store and a pharmacy downtown I just don't see how residential will build up.  

I personally would love to move downtown but I just don't see the infrastructure is there as of yet.

This is one of those comments you always hear that I simultaneously understand, and don't understand...

Sure, in an ideal world, we would have a truly urban downtown, where you never needed a car for ANYTHING.  That would be great, and I definitly want it to come true for Tulsa.

However, how many people walk to the grocery store now...even those who live within 1/4 - 1/2 mile of one?  I bet not many.

What matters to people...  Do you love your home?  Are you close to great parks?  Can your kids go to good schools?  Are you conveniently close to dining/entertainment options?  Do you like your neighbors?  Do you have a short commute time to work?  Do you think your neighborhood is attractive?

Judge downtown on these criteria and it's obvious what's missing...we just need more cool places to live downtown!  I agreee that folks who want to live downtown want the pedestrian friendly urban experience.  Just saying: start with unique, urban housing. People will follow.  Services will follow the people.

Great points. I live downtown, and I love it. It's just convenient for me. I work in Midtown, so I'm usually going the opposite direction of most traffic on the way to work and back home...Most of the places I frequent are downtown or at least within 5 miles of it...I have a great view of the skyline from my balcony...the rent is very reasonable...I have great neighbors, etc. I think it's fun to watch all the traffic and people coming into my neighborhood when events are going on at the BOK Center. I would love to see downtown that busy every night!

Not having much retail nearby I'm sure could be inconvenient to most people, but it doesn't bother me. I think, just as you said, the more people who come live downtown, the more business will follow. Right now, I just take Riverside down to Brookside to go my grocery shopping, and the QT at 15th and Denver usually has the one-off items I need.

Really the only complaint I have is I wish more people lived downtown. Hopefully with these new housing options scheduled to be open soon, that will happen.

[Rico]

Might I elaborate on what the esteemed Mr Sgrizzle had stated in regards to Downtown.

But where will they park?

(sorry, had to)





A very large percent of your problem can be seen in this photo..