Downtown as a destination

[AVERAGE JOE]

quote:Originally posted by stageidea

I still feel that without a grocery store and a pharmacy downtown I just don't see how residential will build up.  

I personally would love to move downtown but I just don't see the infrastructure is there as of yet.

Oldest saying around: Retail follows rooftops. Until there's enough critical mass of residents downtown to justify a grocery store, it's only 5 minutes to 15th & Lewis. If and when the grocery at Pine and Peoria reopens, that's only 5 minutes away. Brookside is 10-15 minutes away. Not a big deal.

[joiei]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder



My mother was in town this weekend.  My family and I took her downtown to the Walking with Dinosaurs show (which was very cool, btw).  We wanted to make an evening out of it so with the show starting at 7:30 we went down around 5:30.

First stop:  Joe Mamas.  45-1:00 wait.  Next stop:  El Guapo.  Then McNellies.  All too long of a wait for us to comfortably get to the show.  Blue Dome Diner was closed.  Billy's and Quiznos are closed.  Atlas and Subway - closed.  Tsunami is out of business.  I'm not a fan of Spaghetti warehouse and didn't want to talk over to the Brady anyway.


After we left the show my mom commented that if she wanted to get a drink she wouldn't feel comfortable because a nice bar is surrounded by unlit rail lines, abandoned buildings, and dark alleys.  She thought it was very odd that there was nothing near the Center itself, we had to walk 6-10 blocks to the closet place to eat or get a drink.  Even then it was hard to tell where bars were - often not able to see one from the other or a lit path between them. (mock her attitude if you want, but these are the downtown visitors we want to attract)

The Daily Grill at the Crown Plaza Hotel is 3 1/2 blocks at the most from the BOK.  Nice menu, full bar, comfortable room. From talking with friends who work there, they get a LOT of out of town business for events, They are always amazed at how many people come in from out of town for events at the new arena.  Just a suggestion for your next trip to downtown.  Oh, and they are open before and after all events unless it runs really really late.

[TheArtist]

Yes, I really think rooftops needs to be the next focus for any redevelopment plans for downtown. We have and are getting the large anchor attractions with the BOK Arena, now the Ballpark, and in the near future the Museum. We have a good selection of restaurants and clubs going.

The missing element is an area that people would go through and think..."Oh, this looks like a nice area to live in." A street that looks like a safe, visually pleasant, pedestrian friendly, urban neighborhood.

Something like this...









Whether the style is contemporary or classic. The street should be pedestrian friendly, have trees, have a park nearby, should feel as though its kid and family friendly. Sure it would be nice to have some contemporary highrise stuff, a mix of different types of areas and living styles would be great. But we need a good, family friendly, urban, but relatively quiet, street somewhere to be a solid anchor for downtown.

[cannon_fodder]

Artist, I believe you have it down.  The concept of residential streets downtown and "A" streets for entertainment, dining and retail tie it all together.  I'm not arguing against business, it has it's place and it can be mingled in just fine.  I think having a working downtown makes it more interesting (truck terminals, warehouses, artists studios, offices) and makes it downtown.  But the elements you are talking about are what attract people downtown to live, move more jobs in, and to stay and play.

The areas you have pictures are much more family friendly (think Cosby).  I doubt many families will move into the Mayo or similar lofts.  Do we have any "master plan" that goes along with your "A" street ideas or to encourage "urban neighborhoods" downtown (should note that the brownstone type development in the Pearl District is a step in that direction).

[waterboy]

During one of my prosperous times I almost bought an old apartment building close to downtown. A three story walk-up. It had been conveniently located during its 1920's heyday, having been across the street from a grocery, near a trolley and in walking distance to the office buildings.

What struck me at the time was how far we had moved away from a perfectly good model of living for downtown and I question whether it will ever return. Each unit had its own "icebox", a small insulated builtin metal box with room for a block of ice at the top. Residents merely walked across the street to shop for fresh goods to prepare meals. There weren't any signs of former restaurants nearby (those were likely in the core of downtown), there was an old bar and liquor store, two parks nearby and some residential. Closets were quite small and there was no washer/dryer hookups as a dry cleaner/laundry was situated on one of the nearby corners. There was no parking lot for the building. Cars did not dominate the lifestyle.

Anyway, everything necessary for an efficient, healthy, interesting lifestyle was present. It seems many tasks, like laundry, were centralized rather than individualized. It was reminiscent of bigger city living. Great building and I wish I had committed to it as it has since diminished. That sense of communal living is just so far off in history that I doubt it can be recreated. The car, increased personal wealth and technology changed it all. I hope I'm wrong.

[TURobY]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

Anyway, everything necessary for an efficient, healthy, interesting lifestyle was present. It seems many tasks, like laundry, were centralized rather than individualized. It was reminiscent of bigger city living.... That sense of communal living is just so far off in history that I doubt it can be recreated. The car, increased personal wealth and technology changed it all. I hope I'm wrong.

I don't know why you can't have the same thing, with modern conveniences. I see it exist in other cities, where they have the city life that we want to emulate, yet they also have the modern technology that we enjoy (cars, washer/dryer, etc).

[wordherder]

Actually, the problem seems to be more a matter of timing.

I understand there was a lot of interest from restaurants, hoteliers and other entertainment venues around the arena.  But, practically none of them wanted to take a risk and be open before the arena was ready.

Then when the arena opened in September... the economy went to hell.  Now banks are extremely hesitant to give commercial loans to anyone, even those with the sure-fire plans.  And so the people who wanted to go in now can't.  I understand plans for Brickhugger Grill (done by the SoChey folks) are delayed largely because of this.

Yes, the fact that the restaurants that are open are going like gangbusters shows there is a desire for more restaurants and bars in the area, but as long as the economy is crap nothing will happen.

[bacjz00]

The key to making downtown viable will be getting some REAL development to occur around the new baseball park and in Greenwood.  The "island" that the BOK Center was built on will never be able to match the development opportunities near Blue Dome and Brady.  

In general, I agree with everything Artist says.  Downtown is just a giant mess right now from a development standpoint.  No master plan and honestly, no big money flowing.  We need a BIG development to come in and grow something out of nothing and the ballpark is the closest thing we have.  At least it includes redevelopment around the park as part of the package.  

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by bacjz00

The key to making downtown viable will be getting some REAL development to occur around the new baseball park and in Greenwood.  The "island" that the BOK Center was built on will never be able to match the development opportunities near Blue Dome and Brady.  

In general, I agree with everything Artist says.  Downtown is just a giant mess right now from a development standpoint.  No master plan and honestly, no big money flowing.  We need a BIG development to come in and grow something out of nothing and the ballpark is the closest thing we have.  At least it includes redevelopment around the park as part of the package.  

Sorry to say, but it doesnt include redevelopment around it. They have the property for redevelopment, but no development. They ran off the one guy who did have some development plans.

If we had just been one or two years ahead of where we are now in redeveloping downtown and "pedestrian friendly urban areas", we would be looking at a completely different scenario. Its frustrating, but to be fair, Tulsa has had several bad knocks against her this last decade. Its been tough.


Yesterday, on the City Data Forum someone who is moving to Tulsa asked for some contemporary apartments to rent. Where the areas were, the name of the apartments, etc. I can't for the life of me think of one single contemporary apartment building or apartment complex in the entire city? Can any of you?

We have the new contemporary homes in Cherry Street and Brookside, but I think those are for sale, not for rent. You just wonder what we could do to break the cycle we seem to always be in. Rest of the economy booms, then just as we get going, things collapse. We used to have more oil to pull us through and have the big booms ourselves, but those days are over.

One could say that inching along steadily is prefferable to boom then bust. But if your not growing enough to weather the downturn,,, In other words if your inching along forward, then during the downturns you inch along backwards lol. Are you really getting anywhere? I guess the tale will be told once this recession is over and the next upturn happens. I just worry that if after each successive downturn or bad knock, we end up with a little less momentum, sooner or later you wont be inching along at all and will just get to the point of only sliding backwards.

[Conan71]

When did Tsunami go tits-up?

I loved the space, thought the food was uh-okay, but loathed the service, even when sitting at the sushi bar.

That's kind of a shocker, they were usually pretty busy.  Anyone know the 411?

[USRufnex]

Downtown after dusk is still a wasteland... you drive around from one oasis (2~3 blocks on Brady) to another (2~3 blocks by the Blue Dome), to the little mini district off 18th...  sadly, the Jenks Riverwalk had more variety imho than driving around the skyscrapers and surface parking downtown.  There is clearly enough urban density to support a grocery store downtown... devil is in the details.  Is it easier to drive to Reasors or Pettys than drive eight to ten downtown blocks to a grocery store inside the IDL?  There was once a grocery behind the Central Park condos... but now???  A Trader Joes would be nice, but the more appropriate option would likely be an Aldi... surrounded by a barbed-wire fence.  I tire of downtown boosters who make the perfect the enemy of the good... the last time downtown Tulsa experienced "Critical Mass" was pre-Vatican II...

[we vs us]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist
One could say that inching along steadily is prefferable to boom then bust. But if your not growing enough to weather the downturn,,, In other words if your inching along forward, then during the downturns you inch along backwards lol. Are you really getting anywhere? I guess the tale will be told once this recession is over and the next upturn happens. I just worry that if after each successive downturn or bad knock, we end up with a little less momentum, sooner or later you wont be inching along at all and will just get to the point of only sliding backwards.

You nailed it, pretty  much.  The problem is being late to one party means you're probably going to be late to the next party.  If our new investments don't pan out immediately because of the economy, Tulsans will be doubly skeptical about joining the next upturn.  They'll feel burned by the perception that our tax dollars were wasted -- which, I've learned, is as much a habit as actual reality -- and hold back investment when we need it on the next go around.

[Hawkins]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

When did Tsunami go tits-up?

I loved the space, thought the food was uh-okay, but loathed the service, even when sitting at the sushi bar.

That's kind of a shocker, they were usually pretty busy.  Anyone know the 411?

The owner didn't pay rent at his other location, and the word was he was never in town to supervise the stores. His other mistake was that both locations he chose, Downtown and the Riverwalk, both talk a lot of BULL when it comes to "future development."

This thread cracks me up. You guys all wish so hard that downtown wasn't just a place that people only go to when they have to (to pay a fine, work, or see a show at the ill-placed arena or 1,000-year-old "historic" Brady), but folks, thats what it is.

You can spend a day in Tulsa, but to confine yourself to the "old" part of town that used to be what 71st & Highway 169 is now, just isn't going to cut it.

Those businesses all close at 5:00 because after that, their chances of being robbed go WAY up... Downtown Tulsa is a poor income housing area. That makes it high crime, and no one with a family to go home to wants to keep their coffee shop or Quizno's open after the 9-5 workers have gone home.

Seriously. You guys are pipe-dreamers.

--

[cannon_fodder]

quote:Originally posted by Hawkins


Those businesses all close at 5:00 because after that, their chances of being robbed go WAY up... Downtown Tulsa is a poor income housing area. That makes it high crime, and no one with a family to go home to wants to keep their coffee shop or Quizno's open after the 9-5 workers have gone home.

Seriously. You guys are pipe-dreamers.

Spoken like someone who doesn't ever go downtown.

I've been shot at in Midtown.  My wife has had her car broken into at 71st and 169 area.  I've never been the victim of a crime downtown.  How many downtown business have been robbed?  Seems to be all the bank robberies are in South Tulsa - scary scary South Tulsa.

If it is "high crime" after dark, then instead of abandoning it why don't we do something about it?

And clearly you haven't check the rents at the Philtower building, the Renaissance, the brown stones in the pearl, or the future rents of the Mayo or other lofts that are being constructed.  Most of the complaints are that they are too high, not that they are "poor rent districts."  

Des Moines.  Omaha.  Albuquerque.  Oklahoma City.  All cities similar to Tulsa.  All cities that in the last 5-15 years have revitalized their downtowns.  What do they have that Tulsa doesn't?  What do we have to do to get that.

Frankly, continuing to sprawl the city out degrades the standard of living by raising the cost of doing business for the city.  I don't think abandoning what is supposed to be the most dense part of town after 5pm is a wise decision.  Particularly if the reason for doing so is a perception of it being filled with too many poor people.

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by Hawkins

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

When did Tsunami go tits-up?

I loved the space, thought the food was uh-okay, but loathed the service, even when sitting at the sushi bar.

That's kind of a shocker, they were usually pretty busy.  Anyone know the 411?

The owner didn't pay rent at his other location, and the word was he was never in town to supervise the stores. His other mistake was that both locations he chose, Downtown and the Riverwalk, both talk a lot of BULL when it comes to "future development."

This thread cracks me up. You guys all wish so hard that downtown wasn't just a place that people only go to when they have to (to pay a fine, work, or see a show at the ill-placed arena or 1,000-year-old "historic" Brady), but folks, thats what it is.

You can spend a day in Tulsa, but to confine yourself to the "old" part of town that used to be what 71st & Highway 169 is now, just isn't going to cut it.

Those businesses all close at 5:00 because after that, their chances of being robbed go WAY up... Downtown Tulsa is a poor income housing area. That makes it high crime, and no one with a family to go home to wants to keep their coffee shop or Quizno's open after the 9-5 workers have gone home.

Seriously. You guys are pipe-dreamers.

--

Depends on the part of downtown your talking about. Even the first post on this thread mentioned that the places were either too busy, or not open. Even many streets in NYC that you see as being crowded with people, on the week nights for instance will be dead. There are the "tourist areas" the business areas, etc. Each will have its times when they are busy or not. I know that may come as a shock to some.

This goes back to the "A"&"B" streets thing as well. No matter what we do we shouldnt aim for every street or section downtown to always be bustling with people. Quiznos is in the primarily business section of downtown, and is not a bar/dinner destination place like say Mc Nellies and the other restaurants in the Blue Dome.

Its likely all parts of downtown will have mixtures of things, day businesses in the entertainment area, living in the business area, etc. But in order for things to really work we still need to have some defined and properly connected areas. A quiet neighborhood area, some "hoppin" neighborhood areas, arts districts, entertainment districts, business/government district (in which the restaurants and such will close early and could have some of those quiet living options) etc.

Even as downtown gets more stuff and begins filling back in, starts getting more people down there for many reasons... there will still be areas that in the evenings will be quieter, some that will be bustling.

It may be a small thing, but after the Philtower opened up as lofts, I have noticed more cars parked on Boston Ave during the evenings and people going in and out of that building. Add to that the Atlas Hotel next door and those 2 things alone will have started making a street that would in the evenings not have any cars or people,,, actually look as though there is life there lol. Get the Mayo hotel going with its lofts and the hotel part, you will be adding a little bit over there. The Mayo Building would be another nice addition. I think the original post on this thread they had forgotten about the restaurants in the hotels being open in the evenings. We are getting very close to that critical mass where sections of downtown will start to be alive in the evenings and not just during the day. I still say, even with this downturn, by 2012 Downtown will be a very different place than it is now.  

Again, we have and are getting the big pieces in place downtown, what I see that we need to continue plugging away at adding the different living components. A quiet, family oriented, urban neighborhood say in the East End, and lively urban living in the Brady arts, Greenwood and Blue Dome areas.    


Lets not forget that even the business and entertainment districts in places like NYC are dead as a doornail during their off hours and days with stuff closed and hardly anyone on the streets. Its not always "rush hour and busy days" like in the movies lol.





Its a rare street in many a city that is bustling day and night. I have heard stories of Tokyo at night, how its so eerily quiet to most western ears. Its mostly pedestrian oriented so barely any car noise, plus culturally they dont blare music, etc. at night. They say you can look out over most of the city and hear a cricket chirp. The Champs Elysee in Paris is one of those rare busy most of the time streets. But say you go to the famous Paris Opera house. Its mostly tourist groups during the day and I dont remember seeing any eating places nearby. After the opera, I guess you just go to where the eating places are. There are busy streets during the day, but you look off most of the side streets and they are dead. My poor aching Tulsa feet walked down MILES of streets where there wasnt a single soul out. Not a one. Then you make a turn, and suddenly your back into the thick of things. But even those streets, depending on the time of day or night, could be either busy or quiet.

Our downtown is miniscule, microscopic. I think we all get a little bit unrealistic in our imaginings of what things can and should be like, I included. Go to the vaunted bricktown in OKC during the day, dead. The business district in OKC, bustling. A saturday night in Bricktown, bustling. A saturday night in the business district, dead. But its nice that there is usually some area that is bustling and alive to some extent. It would be nice to have that one, central, main, Champs Elysee type street that is always alive though. Even little Brookside is an example of a street that is often alive day and night. Its a traffic corridor that is also a "destination" for shopping, dining, clubs, grocery, etc., (things that you go to at all different times of day and night) is pedestrian friendly and has mixed uses. There are businesses there, its surrounded by housing of different types etc. I think the area from Brady to Greenwood to Blue Dome can be a larger version of that scenario, except that its not a natural traffic corridor like Peoria (and like the Champs Elysee, though not trying to really compare that to Brookside lol, but there are still some similar truths to why they work as they do).