81st and Riverside

[Stone]

I was driving down Riverside yesterday and noticed they were moving dirt on the land across the street from the casino. Does anyone know what's going on there?

[Bravos47]

It's actually going to be used for parking for casino employees to allow for more customer parking at the new casino.

[waterboy]

I thought they already owned that land. They need to address their parking but I guess its too much to ask for multi-level.

Out of boredom and curiosity I visited that casino on Wenesday nite. Hadn't been there since it was just a bingo hall way back. The visit opened my eyes and explains a lot about what has happened to Tulsa. What I saw was truly disturbing. It was the stuff from which bizarre cartoonists derive their characters. Wouldn't surprise me if they are taking in a million a day just in that one casino. What other business in town draws this kind of traffic on a Wednesday nite, in the buckle of the Bible belt? Throw in three others around town and you hear that huge sucking sound that Perot described.

Make note. OKC has lots of different entertainment opportunities spread around the city. Museums, theatre, sports, restaurants and shopping. They have the same demographics, similar income, education, COI, etc. Yeah, they're more cowpoke, surrounded by plain topography and connected with a maze of highways, but still pretty prosperous and farther along with the kinds of development we desire.

The glaring difference is that they only have one small casino that has little impact on the metro. Think about it. I don't begrudge them- I know our ancestors took their land and treated them vilely- I support free enterprise- I know they employ and redirect profits into the community. But is this what Tulsa is now?

[pmcalk]

I heard that it is only going to be a parking lot temporarily until construction is complete at the casino.

[pmcalk]

^^Look at the TMAPC minutes from 12/17/2008.  The lot is suppose to be used for 2 years.  Any additional time will require additional TMAPC approval.

[sgrizzle]

Once the new building opens, they have to remove the existing building, then start on phase 2 (hotel, etc) and I'm betting this lot is to cover them during some of this work.

[cynical]

Let me start by saying that I dislike the casinos for many reasons, not least of which is the hassle of crossing the entrances to the Creek Casino on the bike path.  

Waterboy has an interesting hypothesis comparing OKC and Tulsa, but it is based on flawed data.  There are plenty of popular casinos in the OKC area.  The largest in the state is the WindRiver Casino in Norman.  Other large casinos are Lucky Star in Concho (El Reno) and the Kickapoo Casino in Harrah.  The casino at Remington is an afterthought, as Waterboy suggests.   And the Shawnees have plans for a large casino on I-35 between Wilshire Blvd. and Britton Road.

With the exception of the NBA team, the entertainment options in Tulsa are roughly equivalent to those in OKC.  They support their sports teams far better than Tulsans ever have, but Tulsans have supported the performing arts better than they do in OKC.  They have one part-time symphony orchestra, no opera company, and a small, struggling ballet company.  Tulsa has two orchestras, a well-respected regional opera company, and a highly-regarded ballet company that takes its show to OKC on a regular basis.  The theater options are about the same.  Celebrity Attractions, based in Tulsa, stages major Broadway touring productions in both cities.  Both have local theater companies, but OKC offsets its lack of an opera company by having the Lyric Theatre producing a larger number of musicals locally.  

Philbrook has a far superior collection to the OKC Museum of Art, and Gilcrease's collection is far superior to that at the National Cowboy Hall of Fame and Western Heritage Museum.  The expanding art museum at OU may be the equalizer.  The impressionist exhibit there is not to be missed.

The Bricktown district makes a variety of entertainment alternatives convenient and walkable.  This is an advantage to OKC that Tulsa has yet to match.

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

I thought they already owned that land. They need to address their parking but I guess its too much to ask for multi-level.

Out of boredom and curiosity I visited that casino on Wenesday nite. Hadn't been there since it was just a bingo hall way back. The visit opened my eyes and explains a lot about what has happened to Tulsa. What I saw was truly disturbing. It was the stuff from which bizarre cartoonists derive their characters. Wouldn't surprise me if they are taking in a million a day just in that one casino. What other business in town draws this kind of traffic on a Wednesday nite, in the buckle of the Bible belt? Throw in three others around town and you hear that huge sucking sound that Perot described.

Make note. OKC has lots of different entertainment opportunities spread around the city. Museums, theatre, sports, restaurants and shopping. They have the same demographics, similar income, education, COI, etc. Yeah, they're more cowpoke, surrounded by plain topography and connected with a maze of highways, but still pretty prosperous and farther along with the kinds of development we desire.

The glaring difference is that they only have one small casino that has little impact on the metro. Think about it. I don't begrudge them- I know our ancestors took their land and treated them vilely- I support free enterprise- I know they employ and redirect profits into the community. But is this what Tulsa is now?

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by cynical

Let me start by saying that I dislike the casinos for many reasons, not least of which is the hassle of crossing the entrances to the Creek Casino on the bike path.  

Waterboy has an interesting hypothesis comparing OKC and Tulsa, but it is based on flawed data.  There are plenty of popular casinos in the OKC area.  The largest in the state is the WindRiver Casino in Norman.  Other large casinos are Lucky Star in Concho (El Reno) and the Kickapoo Casino in Harrah.  The casino at Remington is an afterthought, as Waterboy suggests.   And the Shawnees have plans for a large casino on I-35 between Wilshire Blvd. and Britton Road.

With the exception of the NBA team, the entertainment options in Tulsa are roughly equivalent to those in OKC.  They support their sports teams far better than Tulsans ever have, but Tulsans have supported the performing arts better than they do in OKC.  They have one part-time symphony orchestra, no opera company, and a small, struggling ballet company.  Tulsa has two orchestras, a well-respected regional opera company, and a highly-regarded ballet company that takes its show to OKC on a regular basis.  The theater options are about the same.  Celebrity Attractions, based in Tulsa, stages major Broadway touring productions in both cities.  Both have local theater companies, but OKC offsets its lack of an opera company by having the Lyric Theatre producing a larger number of musicals locally.  

Philbrook has a far superior collection to the OKC Museum of Art, and Gilcrease's collection is far superior to that at the National Cowboy Hall of Fame and Western Heritage Museum.  The expanding art museum at OU may be the equalizer.  The impressionist exhibit there is not to be missed.

The Bricktown district makes a variety of entertainment alternatives convenient and walkable.  This is an advantage to OKC that Tulsa has yet to match.

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

I thought they already owned that land. They need to address their parking but I guess its too much to ask for multi-level.

Out of boredom and curiosity I visited that casino on Wenesday nite. Hadn't been there since it was just a bingo hall way back. The visit opened my eyes and explains a lot about what has happened to Tulsa. What I saw was truly disturbing. It was the stuff from which bizarre cartoonists derive their characters. Wouldn't surprise me if they are taking in a million a day just in that one casino. What other business in town draws this kind of traffic on a Wednesday nite, in the buckle of the Bible belt? Throw in three others around town and you hear that huge sucking sound that Perot described.

Make note. OKC has lots of different entertainment opportunities spread around the city. Museums, theatre, sports, restaurants and shopping. They have the same demographics, similar income, education, COI, etc. Yeah, they're more cowpoke, surrounded by plain topography and connected with a maze of highways, but still pretty prosperous and farther along with the kinds of development we desire.

The glaring difference is that they only have one small casino that has little impact on the metro. Think about it. I don't begrudge them- I know our ancestors took their land and treated them vilely- I support free enterprise- I know they employ and redirect profits into the community. But is this what Tulsa is now?

I can buy some of that. I displayed some hubris. However, you've expanded the comparison to include the OKC region. Norman, El Reno, Harrah are in the "area" but not in the metro. If you make that comparison we would have to add in Okmulgee and WindRiver here too. Norman as part of the OKC area is a stretch as Norman does quite well in arts, entertainment and sports without OKC. The effect of the university balances out any casino dominance. Take BA, SS or Owasso away from Tulsa and they got squat. At least Bixby has an arena.

And no doubt the arts are more sophisticated and plentiful here cause we're not as cowboy..but... the argument still stands. Casino's do not drive OKC. More accurate to say government jobs do, but not Casinoes. Their promotions, billboards, magazine ads, TV ads etc are not dominated by gambling interests. Here, they share dominance with car dealers.

The first advertiser, sponsor or donor you better line up for a new magazine, fundraiser or special event in Tulsa had better be one of the casinoes, QT or a car dealership. Not so in OKC. (there its Chesapeake).

Its going to get worse. Visit one and see if my perception is in error.

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

I thought they already owned that land. They need to address their parking but I guess its too much to ask for multi-level.

There's a parking garage under the new casino and the construction site just north of the new building is going to be a huge multi-level garage. There's were mock-ups of the garage on here a couple of months back. I think Grizzle found them.

[joiei]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by cynical

Let me start by saying that I dislike the casinos for many reasons, not least of which is the hassle of crossing the entrances to the Creek Casino on the bike path.  

Waterboy has an interesting hypothesis comparing OKC and Tulsa, but it is based on flawed data.  There are plenty of popular casinos in the OKC area.  The largest in the state is the WindRiver Casino in Norman.  Other large casinos are Lucky Star in Concho (El Reno) and the Kickapoo Casino in Harrah.  The casino at Remington is an afterthought, as Waterboy suggests.   And the Shawnees have plans for a large casino on I-35 between Wilshire Blvd. and Britton Road.

With the exception of the NBA team, the entertainment options in Tulsa are roughly equivalent to those in OKC.  They support their sports teams far better than Tulsans ever have, but Tulsans have supported the performing arts better than they do in OKC.  They have one part-time symphony orchestra, no opera company, and a small, struggling ballet company.  Tulsa has two orchestras, a well-respected regional opera company, and a highly-regarded ballet company that takes its show to OKC on a regular basis.  The theater options are about the same.  Celebrity Attractions, based in Tulsa, stages major Broadway touring productions in both cities.  Both have local theater companies, but OKC offsets its lack of an opera company by having the Lyric Theatre producing a larger number of musicals locally.  

Philbrook has a far superior collection to the OKC Museum of Art, and Gilcrease's collection is far superior to that at the National Cowboy Hall of Fame and Western Heritage Museum.  The expanding art museum at OU may be the equalizer.  The impressionist exhibit there is not to be missed.

The Bricktown district makes a variety of entertainment alternatives convenient and walkable.  This is an advantage to OKC that Tulsa has yet to match.

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

I thought they already owned that land. They need to address their parking but I guess its too much to ask for multi-level.

Out of boredom and curiosity I visited that casino on Wenesday nite. Hadn't been there since it was just a bingo hall way back. The visit opened my eyes and explains a lot about what has happened to Tulsa. What I saw was truly disturbing. It was the stuff from which bizarre cartoonists derive their characters. Wouldn't surprise me if they are taking in a million a day just in that one casino. What other business in town draws this kind of traffic on a Wednesday nite, in the buckle of the Bible belt? Throw in three others around town and you hear that huge sucking sound that Perot described.

Make note. OKC has lots of different entertainment opportunities spread around the city. Museums, theatre, sports, restaurants and shopping. They have the same demographics, similar income, education, COI, etc. Yeah, they're more cowpoke, surrounded by plain topography and connected with a maze of highways, but still pretty prosperous and farther along with the kinds of development we desire.

The glaring difference is that they only have one small casino that has little impact on the metro. Think about it. I don't begrudge them- I know our ancestors took their land and treated them vilely- I support free enterprise- I know they employ and redirect profits into the community. But is this what Tulsa is now?

I can buy some of that. I displayed some hubris. However, you've expanded the comparison to include the OKC region. Norman, El Reno, Harrah are in the "area" but not in the metro. If you make that comparison we would have to add in Okmulgee and WindRiver here too. Norman as part of the OKC area is a stretch as Norman does quite well in arts, entertainment and sports without OKC. The effect of the university balances out any casino dominance. Take BA, SS or Owasso away from Tulsa and they got squat. At least Bixby has an arena.

And no doubt the arts are more sophisticated and plentiful here cause we're not as cowboy..but... the argument still stands. Casino's do not drive OKC. More accurate to say government jobs do, but not Casinoes. Their promotions, billboards, magazine ads, TV ads etc are not dominated by gambling interests. Here, they share dominance with car dealers.

The first advertiser, sponsor or donor you better line up for a new magazine, fundraiser or special event in Tulsa had better be one of the casinoes, QT or a car dealership. Not so in OKC. (there its Chesapeake).

Its going to get worse. Visit one and see if my perception is in error.

the following quote is taken from Wikipedia about  

quote: Norman, Oklahoma is the anchor city of the south Oklahoma City Metropolitan Area and has a growing full-time population of over 106,000 residents, making it the state's third-largest city. Norman is home to the University of Oklahoma, the state's largest university. Norman is a combination of a well-established "college town," historic neighborhoods among the state's oldest, 1950's-era middle-class areas, and newer developments mostly on the town's north side. Always a hub of alternative music, Norman was home to indie rockers the Chainsaw Kittens and was a starting place for international super stars the Flaming Lips. Norman is also the hometown of movie star James Garner and country music star Vince Gill.

the Oklahoma City Metropolitan Statistical Area.  The last time I drove I-35 I do not remember every leaving the urban area driving between Norman and OKC. Try telling the OKC greater chamber of commerce that Norman is not part of OKC.

[Red Arrow]

quote:Originally posted by joiei
Always a hub of alternative music, Norman was home to indie rockers the Chainsaw Kittens and was a starting place for international super stars the Flaming Lips. Norman is also the hometown of movie star James Garner and country music star Vince Gill.

James Garner and Vince Gill I recognize. The others....? So What.  I guess I am older than I thought.

[waterboy]

Well, Joie, if Wiki said it then thats the end of it eh?

I'll tell Norman COC the same thing. COC's puff for their own purposes. Norman has, and does live just fine on its own in arts/entertainment/sports separate from OKC as your link to Wiki shows and anyone who's ever lived there can attest. It doesn't need OKC for its survival and it doesn't rely on casinoes either.

Norman anchoring the southern hub of the OKC Metro is about as legitimate as suggesting Bartlesville or Mannford anchor the western and Northern hubs of the Tulsa metro. Its 20 miles away for gawd's sake.

I would also point out that small towns run contiguously from Dallas to near the Oklahoma border. Atoka does not become the northern anchor for Dallas.

Even so, you can nitpick about definitions of trade areas or you could address my comparison of the two areas. OKC does not have 4 major casinos within a radius of 8 miles of their downtown core. It bears repeating....Three out of the four corners of this city are "anchored" with casinoes that sit within 8 miles of the arena. The only area of town without a major casino is SE Tulsa/Broken Arrow/Bixby. Define either city with arbitrary definitions of their trade areas, their areas of influence, their density of population or their demographics. The truth is that the casinoes here have more effect here than in OKC. And its not a positive effect.

[cynical]

Waterboy, your "Dallas to the Oklahoma border" argument is nonsense.  It's not just Wikipedia.  Norman is by every measure except yours in the OKC metro area.  Your argument to the contrary is laughable. The United States census says that Norman is in the OKC metropolitan area.  http://www.census.gov/population/www/metroareas/lists/2007/List1.txt But they are all wrong and you're right?

You're painted into a corner.  Beware of posting under the influence.

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

Well, Joie, if Wiki said it then thats the end of it eh?

I'll tell Norman COC the same thing. COC's puff for their own purposes. Norman has, and does live just fine on its own in arts/entertainment/sports separate from OKC as your link to Wiki shows and anyone who's ever lived there can attest. It doesn't need OKC for its survival and it doesn't rely on casinoes either.

Norman anchoring the southern hub of the OKC Metro is about as legitimate as suggesting Bartlesville or Mannford anchor the western and Northern hubs of the Tulsa metro. Its 20 miles away for gawd's sake.

I would also point out that small towns run contiguously from Dallas to near the Oklahoma border. Atoka does not become the northern anchor for Dallas.

Even so, you can nitpick about definitions of trade areas or you could address my comparison of the two areas. OKC does not have 4 major casinos within a radius of 8 miles of their downtown core. It bears repeating....Three out of the four corners of this city are "anchored" with casinoes that sit within 8 miles of the arena. The only area of town without a major casino is SE Tulsa/Broken Arrow/Bixby. Define either city with arbitrary definitions of their trade areas, their areas of influence, their density of population or their demographics. The truth is that the casinoes here have more effect here than in OKC. And its not a positive effect.

[sgrizzle]

That link lists Tulsa as being a seven county area. So your "proof" that Norman is part of OKC also says Okmulgee is part of Tulsa.

quote:Originally posted by cynical

Waterboy, your "Dallas to the Oklahoma border" argument is nonsense.  It's not just Wikipedia.  Norman is by every measure except yours in the OKC metro area.  Your argument to the contrary is laughable. The United States census says that Norman is in the OKC metropolitan area.  

http://www.census.gov/population/www/metroareas/lists/2007/List1.txt But they are all wrong and you're right?

You're painted into a corner.  Beware of posting under the influence.

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

Well, Joie, if Wiki said it then thats the end of it eh?

I'll tell Norman COC the same thing. COC's puff for their own purposes. Norman has, and does live just fine on its own in arts/entertainment/sports separate from OKC as your link to Wiki shows and anyone who's ever lived there can attest. It doesn't need OKC for its survival and it doesn't rely on casinoes either.

Norman anchoring the southern hub of the OKC Metro is about as legitimate as suggesting Bartlesville or Mannford anchor the western and Northern hubs of the Tulsa metro. Its 20 miles away for gawd's sake.

I would also point out that small towns run contiguously from Dallas to near the Oklahoma border. Atoka does not become the northern anchor for Dallas.

Even so, you can nitpick about definitions of trade areas or you could address my comparison of the two areas. OKC does not have 4 major casinos within a radius of 8 miles of their downtown core. It bears repeating....Three out of the four corners of this city are "anchored" with casinoes that sit within 8 miles of the arena. The only area of town without a major casino is SE Tulsa/Broken Arrow/Bixby. Define either city with arbitrary definitions of their trade areas, their areas of influence, their density of population or their demographics. The truth is that the casinoes here have more effect here than in OKC. And its not a positive effect.

[waterboy]

Cynical, Joeie. I speak of reality. You speak of statistical constructs. The elephant is sitting in your living room and all you can do is note that your living room seems smaller than it used to be yet it measures the same size. The facts are on your side so you argue them instead of the issues.

When's the last time you shopped Okmulgee? When's the last time you saw a play in Claremore? Visited that cool park in Bartlesville lately? When's the last time you visited Sapulpa for anything? Glenpool? Well guess what, they don't spend much time here either. Most are self sufficient. They have their own WalMarts, Targets, theaters and restaurants. They do shop here and they do gamble here but we also do the same with OKC, Dallas and KC.

Speaking of getting smaller. The number of thinkers on this forum seems to be getting smaller and smaller. Things are changing. Net shopping screws up the old models of MSA's doesn't it? Now my area is global as long as trucking works. I never have to leave home except to go to work. MSA's now seem to be increasing defining housing patterns rather than purchasing patterns.

If you fear upsetting the elephant in the living room thats reasonable. But to ignore he exists is folly. Either casino gambling is the best thing to hit Tulsa since oil or we have a new adjustment to make in allocation of our resources to serve a new, intangible producer owned by another nation. These are big players. Maybe that entity will pull money out of the outlying areas of our MSA and the corollary spending will be redeposited in the city, maybe not. One insider tells me they pull a million a day out of Tulsa just at one casino here in town. How does that effect discretionary spending in a city already reeling from losing so many businesses?

So find fault with my comparison of OKC not being driven by gambling. Or find fault with my assertion that Tulsa is. Or analyze the prospect that the direction of Tulsa development will reflect that fundamental change in focus. So far nothing I've said has been challenged except the delineation of a statistical area. I guess I nailed everything else.[]