Who are the downtown advocates?

[PonderInc]

I had a conversation today that has me thinking...

Who are Tulsa's downtown advocates/champions?

Who are the leaders who understand the value of downtown Tulsa to the city, the state, and the region?  Who fights for downtown resources?  Who educates business leaders about the economic advantages of a thriving, one-of-a-kind, vibrant city core?  

The oil barons who built Tulsa were full of civic pride--passionate about demonstrating to the world that Tulsa was a cosmopolitan, beautiful city full of arts and culture and bold, stunning architecture, as well as an energetic and innovative business community.  

Where did that mindset go?  Why did we become so apathetic and complacent?  So enamored with the status quo and the short term gains of generic suburban sprawl?  So convinced that downtown was less relevant to economic development than the next call center or big box store?

[waterboy]

Does it really help to look back? Downtown and the old neighborhoods weren't fashionable, Southern Hills and Southland were. So was annexation. The city had lots of land it could have developed north and west but that land was rocky, hilly and much harder to develop than the soft undulating land to the south and east. Sprawl was the symptom, not the disease. Lots of reasons including race, class, crime, greed, opportunity and ignorance. Thus has it ever been so. In my mind, the turning point was the birth of Woodland Hills and the exit of the oil companies from the core.

I like the changes downtown. It will never be the same but it can be something pleasantly different. I will support any leader who commits to its rebuilding.

[sgrizzle]

Keep in mind that some of those same Oil Barons, primarily Waite Phillips, were the ones who started urban sprawl.

[cannon_fodder]

Inteller raises a very good point.  The off kilter nature of Tulsa's downtown is unique.  What cities are similar in their lopsidedness and what have they done?

It is not entire unique.  Many cities that have a lake, ocean, or other natural barrier have lopsided downtowns.  Just sayin', it does add to the challenge.

[Gold]

It's an interesting issue and a fair question.

Something on my mind lately, as someone who offices downtown and lives nearby: why would you office down there?  Now I don't mean the question in a pejorative sense -- I think having a thriving central business district is ultimately an important thing.  But why would you?

My business needs to be down there.  I have clients who HATE downtown, mainly because they don't understand the streets and don't like walking a block.  But to do my business, I firmly believe our best product comes from being downtown; we can do things quicker and cheaper than others.

There are a lot of large, rapidly decaying office buildings in downtown.  I suspect at one time there was a corporate culture that filled those buildings, or at least came close enough to doing so that it made sense to build them.  Now a lot of those buildings have maintenance issues or other problems that make them less attractive than other office options around the city.  (Not all downtown buildings are in bad shape, but a surprising number are.)

But examining the question in terms of economic issues like that, perhaps it makes more sense why downtown isn't as densely populated as many want it to be.

I love our downtown and want it to do well.  I regularly attend concerts in that part of the city, do my work there, and visit the bars and so on.  But if the business climate isn't working to fill up those old buildings or otherwise re-develop them, then I think maybe that's a good point to begin the discussion.

In my mind, our city's biggest challenge is keeping quality jobs.  You bring in good jobs, or develop them on your own, and then you bring in good families that grow roots in the city and contribute to its well-being.  Perhaps we spend too much time trying to artificially prop up the well-being -- roads, bond issues, and entertainment -- and not enough time focusing on the jobs.

Why aren't we attracting or keeping or developing quality jobs?  Is government an impetus for that?  What can it do to encourage that sort of thing?  I think those are the questions.

[TURobY]

quote:Originally posted by Gold

Why aren't we attracting or keeping or developing quality jobs?  Is government an impetus for that?  What can it do to encourage that sort of thing?  I think those are the questions.

Many of my peers moved away from Oklahoma after college because of the socially conservative nature of the state.

[Gold]

That's interesting.  We are very conservative as a state.  

But, it's not like the Taliban is running things, either.  There are events in Tulsa that can get pretty out of hand; I'm never at a loss for entertainment options and I don't feel particularly threatened by some wingnuts that might disagree with me on social issues.

One complaint I've heard, and I think this makes some sense, is that Tulsa can be a tough place for people over the age of 25 or 30 who aren't married.  I have plenty of friends in that category that seem pretty happy, but I have a couple of others who left because of that.

In the end, I think quality jobs will attract people.  Money usually wins out.

[BierGarten]

I think single twenty somethings that leave Tulsa for greener pastures are fooling themselves into thinking they are in the wrong place to find a mate.  IMO, Tulsa is way less pompous about such things as what car you drive, what job you have, where your house is, etc... than name your big metropolis.  Your odds are no better in some other larger city of finding a mate.  

As an aside, if people are leaving Tulsa because it is too "socially conservative" then that is great news.

[carltonplace]

I think the mayor is an advocate of downtown, though sometimes her "means to an end" doesn't always give the public the input they want. Jack Crowley seems to have a laser-beam focus on downtown development.
Michael Bates, TulsaNow, many of the restaurant owners (notably Elliot and Blake), Kaiser are all advocates.

I'd also include all of the people who live downtown or in proximity. Today these folks have to leave their neighborhood to get basic services or to shop..everyone of them would tell you that they want to be able to buy shoes, get a hair cut, pick up toilet paper and a bottle of wine downtown.

[cynical]

quote:Originally posted by inteller

quote:Originally posted by PonderInc

I had a conversation today that has me thinking...

Who are Tulsa's downtown advocates/champions?

Who are the leaders who understand the value of downtown Tulsa to the city, the state, and the region?  Who fights for downtown resources?  Who educates business leaders about the economic advantages of a thriving, one-of-a-kind, vibrant city core?  

The oil barons who built Tulsa were full of civic pride--passionate about demonstrating to the world that Tulsa was a cosmopolitan, beautiful city full of arts and culture and bold, stunning architecture, as well as an energetic and innovative business community.  

Where did that mindset go?  Why did we become so apathetic and complacent?  So enamored with the status quo and the short term gains of generic suburban sprawl?  So convinced that downtown was less relevant to economic development than the next call center or big box store?

when tulsa stuffed "downtown" to a far off northwest corner with the 1960s annex.

name me one other city that has such an off center city core and i'll show you a forgotten downtown there as well.

There are many cities with off-center city cores.  Every city that backs up to a mountain, river, ocean, or other natural barrier has a similar growth pattern.  Most of them have seen their downtowns deteriorate and then experience a resurgence.  Check out St. Louis, Boston, Little Rock, El Paso, Portland, Or, Omaha, Louisville, Memphis, Cincinnati, Philadelphia, and many others.  The Oklahoma City model of the downtown being smack-dab in the middle of the metro area isn't unusual, either, but outside of flat areas lacking major rivers, the terrain and the cost of infrastructure determine the direction the city grows. The off-center downtown excuse is a cop-out. Lame.

Downtown Tulsa died because no one did anything with it.  They didn't stop doing things with it because it died.  It's coming back because of some well-placed but late public investments and some recent commercial and residential development.

[Hawkins]

I'm loving this thread. 

Young people GTFO to escape religious persecution and seek a larger pool of possible mates and job opportunities, downtown poorly located, clients who HATE to have to drive downtown (that would be the category I fall under).

Its all true.

And Tulsa is WAAAAAAAAAy too conservative. Ever listen to that hate-filled 1170 KFAQ? A few hours of that would scare anyone considering locating in Tulsa away.

I also love when you guys refer to the futility of rebuilding downtown as "challenging." LOL, running a business period is challenging. Increasing business downtown? Thats pretty much like trying to win a race with a three-legged horse. 

[nathanm]

when tulsa stuffed "downtown" to a far off northwest corner with the 1960s annex.

name me one other city that has such an off center city core and i'll show you a forgotten downtown there as well.

I hate to bring it up once again, but Columbus. Not as off center as Tulsa, but almost all of it's growth was to the north. Not a whole lot to the south. It had a ghettoized downtown for a long while, but it seems much better now, and the improvements have spread to the close-in neighborhoods.

[SXSW]

Oklahoma may be a conservative state but so are Texas, Georgia, Tennessee, Louisiana, Utah, etc. and they all have thriving cities.  Tulsa is conservative as a whole but also has a large number of moderate and liberal citizens, and plenty of activists.  If you are left-leaning downtown and midtown definitely are better for you than say Owasso or Broken Arrow. 

As far as downtown goes, I like its location.  If you live in and just north of midtown you are right by it, it's right by the river, and the Osage Hills are a nice backdrop to the northwest.  I could see downtown, as far as residential goes, moving further south toward "uptown" and "SoBo" and better connecting to midtown.  Still lots of improvement left but the change in the past decade has been amazing.