Blue Rose wins Rivers Edge Location...

[Townsend]

I hope the neighbors enjoy their new biker bar and those sweet sounding hogs.

I was wondering about that too.  The pipes will be heard for many blocks.

[OSU]

^Exactly why I had wished Elliot Nelson would have won out over Dittus.

[waterboy]

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20090709_11_0_TheRiv809032

"The River Parks Authority on Thursday approved a 30-year ground lease so that the Blue Rose Cafe can be resurrected on the east bank of the Arkansas River.

Tom Dittus, a member of Swamphouse Partners LLC, which is pursuing the project, said the goal is for patrons to be eating burgers and other meals at the restaurant by Feb. 15."

30 year lease? How many restaurants in Tulsa have survived 30 years? That gives him a lease that he can pass on to heirs or sell to others as long as the name continues. A nice saleable asset provided at taxpayer expense. 10 years would have been sufficient.

And no competition within 300 yards, if enforceable, is regrettable. That would go all the way to Veterans Park! Maybe even across the river. Smaller concessions like hot dog carts, shaved ice, etc. will be denied. Such visionaries.

[cannon_fodder]

I agree the 30 year lease coupled with a 300 yard exclusion is a bit much.  Is there anywhere else in the city that has such a contract?  An exclusive zone of operation for 30 years.  And yes, I too was hoping for a river district to start up.  How much are they paying annually on this lease?

But, under what provisions did the River's Edge operate?  I don't recall seeing any carts near their operation either. 

I quickly scaled out a 300 yard radius, it appears designed to cover the surrounding parking.  Which makes sense I guess.  If I was opening up a restaurant I wouldn't want competition in my parking area.  But still . . .

[SXSW]

I don't think they need to add any parking, there is lot next to it plus another lot to the north that can be used. 

OT, but looking at that aerial it would be really cool to see more higher density residential development around Veterans Park along 21st and 18th.  That could be a nice urban park if the area were more developed around it.

[Breadburner]

No one is going to invest that much money for a 10 year lease......

[Conan71]

I think we are jumping to conclusions without reading the text of the actual lease.  As I recall from the article, the lease is for 10 years, then there are five year options tacked on totalling 30 years.  If RPA (and Tulsans in general) really want river-side entertainment and dining, there has to be incentive for an owner/developer to invest money in constructing a permanent fixture.  A year-to-year lease or even five year lease would not be attractive to a serious investor.  

I would assume the "no competition" clause only applies between the lessee and lessor.  If someone wanted to tear down one of the apartment complexes across the street and build a "Red Rose Cafe" there's nothing to stop them, so long as RPA is not the landlord.  The "300 yard rule" does seem to indicate and ensure that there will not be any sort of river entertainment district planned for that area.  From a traffic and parking stand-point, I really don't think that's a bad thing.  However, if I were a restaurant owner, I'd welcome some competition as it draws more people to an area.

FWIW, I think Tom is pretty sensitive about the noise issues per lessons learned at the old Blue Rose and I don't see anything which would indicate that the new Blue Rose will be dominated by a motorcycling clientele any more than runners, bicyclists, walkers, and gawkers.  BRC has been gone eight years, everyone has found different watering holes in that time.  

[waterboy]

I agree the 30 year lease coupled with a 300 yard exclusion is a bit much.  Is there anywhere else in the city that has such a contract?  An exclusive zone of operation for 30 years.  And yes, I too was hoping for a river district to start up.  How much are they paying annually on this lease?

But, under what provisions did the River's Edge operate?  I don't recall seeing any carts near their operation either. 

I quickly scaled out a 300 yard radius, it appears designed to cover the surrounding parking.  Which makes sense I guess.  If I was opening up a restaurant I wouldn't want competition in my parking area.  But still . . .

Move your shaded circle to position the restaurant within its center. That will include the 21st street bridge, the law offices and part of Veterans. Probably no big deal, but any visions of a Central Park type area with small vendors, creatives and micro entrepreneurs selling Tacos, hot dogs, snow cones or art is nil. Honestly, it doesn't seem very capitalist to me. Unless they have described just what kind of competition is not allowed. Only the parties involved know at this time what those limitations are.

Rivers Edge was very defensive about their perimeter, actually roping it off during festivals to protcct what they thought were business interlopers that RPA had given permission (tacit or informally) to operate. She was not into cross promoting or sharing the area. Really, a very different operation based on really old connections to board members.

[waterboy]

No one is going to invest that much money for a 10 year lease......

So? Invest less money or take more risk. This is public property being leased out for private profit. This is a protected, prime piece of property that they're investing in.

[Conan71]

Probably no big deal, but any visions of a Central Park type area with small vendors, creatives and micro entrepreneurs selling Tacos, hot dogs, snow cones or art is nil. Honestly, it doesn't seem very capitalist to me. Unless they have described just what kind of competition is not allowed. Only the parties involved know at this time what those limitations are.

WB, keep in mind this was a Tulsa Whirled summary of the lease.  Hopefully, I'll run into Tom sometime soon and see if he will provide a little clarification.

[waterboy]

I think we are jumping to conclusions without reading the text of the actual lease.  As I recall from the article, the lease is for 10 years, then there are five year options tacked on totalling 30 years.  If RPA (and Tulsans in general) really want river-side entertainment and dining, there has to be incentive for an owner/developer to invest money in constructing a permanent fixture.  A year-to-year lease or even five year lease would not be attractive to a serious investor.  

I would assume the "no competition" clause only applies between the lessee and lessor.  If someone wanted to tear down one of the apartment complexes across the street and build a "Red Rose Cafe" there's nothing to stop them, so long as RPA is not the landlord.  The "300 yard rule" does seem to indicate and ensure that there will not be any sort of river entertainment district planned for that area.  From a traffic and parking stand-point, I really don't think that's a bad thing.  However, if I were a restaurant owner, I'd welcome some competition as it draws more people to an area.

FWIW, I think Tom is pretty sensitive about the noise issues per lessons learned at the old Blue Rose and I don't see anything which would indicate that the new Blue Rose will be dominated by a motorcycling clientele any more than runners, bicyclists, walkers, and gawkers.  BRC has been gone eight years, everyone has found different watering holes in that time.  

I hope you're right. There are lots of assumptions you're making too. RPA has lots of influence with its surrounding areas, as well as the Riverview district. This would preclude a ferry boat for instance that may desire to dock and serve food/drink. With the dam at Sand Springs providing more consistent depth at Zink, that is very feasible.

Anyway, its a better restaurant potential than what was there.

[cannon_fodder]

I centered my circle on the old Rivers Edge, not knowing exactly where the new place is going to be.  And people are probably right in pointing out that a lease with the RPA has no binding authority on anywhere but River Parks land. 

[Breadburner]

Tom ran off the bikers well before he shut down the Blue Rose....He had some help from the Crow Creek owner as well....People on Harleys  dont make good customers for the most part there are a few exceptions not many......

[dbacks fan]

Does any one know the exact spot for the construction or has it already started?
As for the 300 yard buffer, maybe he wants to keep the park as it is and incorperate Rivers Edge into the property to bring in and promote music and art events. I like the BRC design over the Elliot Nelson design because to me the structure tries to incorperate the river and the park and architecturely it has some resemblance to some of the neighborhoods in the area.

Anyway just my $.02

[Conan71]

Does any one know the exact spot for the construction or has it already started?
As for the 300 yard buffer, maybe he wants to keep the park as it is and incorperate Rivers Edge into the property to bring in and promote music and art events. I like the BRC design over the Elliot Nelson design because to me the structure tries to incorperate the river and the park and architecturely it has some resemblance to some of the neighborhoods in the area.

Anyway just my $.02

I may be a bit biased with my interest in mid-century modern design, the new BRC looks very MCM to me, ergo I like it quite well.