Daily Oklahoman slams Tulsa-OKC rail concept

[Transport_Oklahoma]

http://newsok.com/flight-of-fancy-can-we-afford-high-speed-rail/article/3355998

High-speed passenger rail between Oklahoma City and Tulsa? When pigs fly first class!

We hate to put the kibosh on this caboose, but we doubt most Oklahomans want to spend up to $2 billion for a line connecting the state's two largest cities at up to 150 miles per hour.


Be sure and post a few words to the comments section at the bottom of the article.

[dsjeffries]

"Where oh where", one wonders, "does the Oklahoman get their information?"
$2 billion is a number I've never heard. Actually, the last time price was brought up, I'm pretty sure the estimate to upgrade the lines is $250 million (and that's the extreme high end). So, as usual, the Oklahoman is off by about $1.75 billion.


"Consultant Jack Webb of Texas-based J. Webb and Associates said the Tulsa-Oklahoma City connection will one day be essential to a nationwide effort to connect major cities via rail lines."

[TurismoDreamin]

"Where oh where", one wonders, "does the Oklahoman get their information?"
$2 billion is a number I've never heard. Actually, the last time price was brought up, I'm pretty sure the estimate to upgrade the lines is $250 million (and that's the extreme high end). So, as usual, the Oklahoman is off by about $1.75 billion.


"Consultant Jack Webb of Texas-based J. Webb and Associates said the Tulsa-Oklahoma City connection will one day be essential to a nationwide effort to connect major cities via rail lines."

Are you only quoting a price that uses existing lines? Last I remember, those lines run through small cities and would require slowdowns. The cities in between Tulsa and Oklahoma City that the existing tracks run through would include: Sapulpa, Kellyville, Bristow, Depew, Milfay, Stroud, Davenport, Chandler, Warwick, Wellston, Luther, Jones, and Spencer. I can only see a few of those cities as desirable stops. If you want high-speed rail (150 mph according to the article), you would need an uninterrupted and gentle line with very little to subtle elevation changes. Taking into consideration how hilly I-44 is and I can see how the price would become fairly steep (if they were only looking at installing a brand new line). On another note, a line between Oklahoma City, Tulsa, and Kansas City would be very useful.

[Red Arrow]

Do we really want to go to OKC or is Dallas/Ft Worth and beyond the goal.  Maybe we need to let OKC be a dead end track and go from Tulsa to Dallas direct. The BNSF tracks through Okmulgee are twisty and would require a lot of upgrading.  The tracks to BA go on to Muskogee.  Maybe the UP tracks through Muskogee along US 69 are in better shape than the BNSF tracks through Okmulgee, Henryett, Holdenville and Ada. Another possibility would be to fix up the tracks to Henryetta, put down new tracks to McAlester along the Indian Nations TPK, then join the existing UP tracks.  My Oklahoma rail map shows the UP tracks go to FtW and the BNSF tracks go to Dallas and cross near Colbert, south of Durant.  Later we could add St Louis, KC, Memphis or where ever.  Maybe 150 mph is a while off yet but even 80 mph with minimal stops to Dallas would be better than driving or getting to the airport 2 hrs early for a one hour flight.  The railroads will probably complain about scheduling but that's what computers are for.

Later we could upgrade the tracks to OKC if they wanted the connections to KC, St Louis, etc.

I'm not going to hold my breath waiting but there's no sense in dreaming small.

[GG]

Do we really want to go to OKC or is Dallas/Ft Worth and beyond the goal.  Maybe we need to let OKC be a dead end track and go from Tulsa to Dallas direct. The BNSF tracks through Okmulgee are twisty and would require a lot of upgrading.  The tracks to BA go on to Muskogee.  Maybe the UP tracks through Muskogee along US 69 are in better shape than the BNSF tracks through Okmulgee, Henryett, Holdenville and Ada. Another possibility would be to fix up the tracks to Henryetta, put down new tracks to McAlester along the Indian Nations TPK, then join the existing UP tracks.  My Oklahoma rail map shows the UP tracks go to FtW and the BNSF tracks go to Dallas and cross near Colbert, south of Durant.  Later we could add St Louis, KC, Memphis or where ever.  Maybe 150 mph is a while off yet but even 80 mph with minimal stops to Dallas would be better than driving or getting to the airport 2 hrs early for a one hour flight.  The railroads will probably complain about scheduling but that's what computers are for.

Later we could upgrade the tracks to OKC if they wanted the connections to KC, St Louis, etc.

I'm not going to hold my breath waiting but there's no sense in dreaming small.

Actually San Antonio is the goal.  Ride down for Margaritas on the River Walk.

[Red Arrow]

Margaritas in San Antonio would be good.

If you were really adventuresome, you could take Amtrak east or west from San Antonio. East to New Orleans and the east coast or west all the way to California.

[cannon_fodder]

This article has nothing to do about the line between "between the capital city and Tulsa."  It has everything to do with making sure the capital city is the rail hub in the state.  Making sure the capital city gets connections to Dallas and Wichita and on to other destinations. 

If Tulsa got a link to OKC, Tulsa a might get a link to Fayettville and eventually Little Rock, maybe even up to Kansas City and to wherever they connect to.  People from the capital city might have to pass through Tulsa to get other places.  This transgression can not stand.

Worse yet, a rail line between Tulsa and the capital city would benefit both cities equally.  That is STATE MONEY going to benefit both major cities.  Since people from Tulsa are required by state law to go to the capital city for some business and people in the capital city are given no reasons to come to Tulsa, this would essentially benefit the half of the state's population that lives closer to Tulsa more than the half of the states population that lives near the capital city.  This transgression can not stand.

Oklahoma City Mayor Mick Cornett says it's more important to connect the city with Dallas.

And for some reason Tulsa's mayor thinks that isn't as important.  Well, I guess she does.  I haven't really heard her speak out on this, or really anything having to do with the Tulsa region getting a fair share of the pie.


All moot anyway.  No one in Oklahoma gives a crap about anything but more and bigger roads to drive pickups and SUVs on.  Trillions for roads, not a penny for alternatives!

[MichaelBates]

It's worth remembering that most of these rail alignments (the routes, not the rails themselves) are over 100 years old. The old Frisco line reached Tulsa in 1882 and pushed on to the southwest shortly thereafter. Recall that part of the 1889 Land Run came into the Unassigned Lands by AT&SF train from the north and the south. The MK&T route that parallels US 69 goes back to 1872 -- first railroad in Indian Territory. They follow the land and weren't laid out with 150 MPH rail in mind. A high speed link would almost certainly require new right-of-way and new track, and the cost could very well reach the billions. (Here's the Railroads article in the Oklahoma Encyclopedia of History and Culture.)

[Renaissance]

It's worth remembering that most of these rail alignments (the routes, not the rails themselves) are over 100 years old. The old Frisco line reached Tulsa in 1882 and pushed on to the southwest shortly thereafter. Recall that part of the 1889 Land Run came into the Unassigned Lands by AT&SF train from the north and the south. The MK&T route that parallels US 69 goes back to 1872 -- first railroad in Indian Territory. They follow the land and weren't laid out with 150 MPH rail in mind. A high speed link would almost certainly require new right-of-way and new track, and the cost could very well reach the billions. (Here's the Railroads article in the Oklahoma Encyclopedia of History and Culture.)

What he said.

The Jokelahoman is referring to plans for a true high-speed line, which would have to be built from scratch.  It would be lots and lots of money and really would only make sense in the context of a national system. 

But yeah, it's hilarious how much that paper hates Tulsa.  It just oozes out of every single op-ed and column that mentions us.  Remember this? 

http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=10214.0

[TURobY]

Oddly enough after the Oklahoman's article, my letter was published in the Tulsa World today opinion section...

http://www.tulsaworld.com/opinion/article.aspx?subjectid=62&articleid=20090326_7_A12_spanc75227

Conspiracy between the two papers? 

[AVERAGE JOE]

It's worth remembering that most of these rail alignments (the routes, not the rails themselves) are over 100 years old. The old Frisco line reached Tulsa in 1882 and pushed on to the southwest shortly thereafter. Recall that part of the 1889 Land Run came into the Unassigned Lands by AT&SF train from the north and the south. The MK&T route that parallels US 69 goes back to 1872 -- first railroad in Indian Territory. They follow the land and weren't laid out with 150 MPH rail in mind. A high speed link would almost certainly require new right-of-way and new track, and the cost could very well reach the billions. (Here's the Railroads article in the Oklahoma Encyclopedia of History and Culture.)

We have the right of way. The turnpike. The highway system is being discussed as the logical location for all sorts of infrastructure improvements due to the fact that the existing right of way is one of the nation's most valuable assets (and with a single purpose of moving automobiles, one could argue it's vastly underutilized).

[Transport_Oklahoma]

Oddly enough after the Oklahoman's article, my letter was published in the Tulsa World today opinion section...

http://www.tulsaworld.com/opinion/article.aspx?subjectid=62&articleid=20090326_7_A12_spanc75227

Conspiracy between the two papers? 

Well written piece there TURobY! 

You are right.  No matter what the specific intercity rail priority is, Governor Henry must ensure that ODOT actually applies for the ARRA (stimulus) rail grants.

I don't see any reason to fear a rejected application, either.  That will just put the proposed project in the federal governments infrastructure "to do" box.

[Transport_Oklahoma]

In case anyone isn't aware, the ARRA rail grants are NOT subject to the same shovel-ready requirements that road and transit projects had to meet. 

[TURobY]

In case anyone isn't aware, the ARRA rail grants are NOT subject to the same shovel-ready requirements that road and transit projects had to meet. 

Thanks, I contacted Jeannie McDaniel and Mayor Taylor to add that information.

[PonderInc]

This article has nothing to do about the line between "between the capital city and Tulsa."  It has everything to do with making sure the capital city is the rail hub in the state.  Making sure the capital city gets connections to Dallas and Wichita and on to other destinations. 

I agree, CF.  OKC WANTS rail...ALL of it!  So it behooves them to dismiss the TUL-OKC connection as irrelevant.

I'm not sure how to count the number of people who drive between TUL and OKC each day on the Turner Turnpike, but the traffic count for Stroud is over 12,000 vehicles per day  (more vehicles pass through gates near OKC and Tulsa...up to 16,000 per day).  It's also the most used east-west freight corridor in the state.

So, it sure sounds to me like a high-speed rail connection would be valuable to everyone.  If I could get to OKC in 40 minutes, and without having to drive on the Turner Turnpike, I'd do it much more often.  (Well, at least when the ponies are running at Remington Park....)

A quick and convenient rail corridor between TUL and OKC (with wireless Internet the whole way) would convert a lot of drivers to riders.  And if it linked to the State Capital, it might even get more folks to participate in politics at the state level...  Perhaps that's what they're afraid of!