Daily Oklahoman slams Tulsa-OKC rail concept

[nathanm]

Tulsa a might get a link to Fayetteville

Don't make me drool. That would please me very much. I can only dream of an Acela-type 125mph journey across the countryside and never having to waste an hour and a half of my life driving back and forth again. I could actually sleep or do something productive with my time instead, what a thought!

[Red Arrow]

Don't make me drool. That would please me very much. I can only dream of an Acela-type 125mph journey across the countryside and never having to waste an hour and a half of my life driving back and forth again. I could actually sleep or do something productive with my time instead, what a thought!

Where is the Rail Road equivalent of Dan P Holmes when we need him?

[Red Arrow]

It's worth remembering that most of these rail alignments (the routes, not the rails themselves) are over 100 years old.

Considering the earth moving tools of the time, it's not surprising the routes the ROW took. They go around hills, around areas of creek oxbows, and follow river valleys. Straightening out those curves would be expensive.  Following the river is one reason the Mid-Valley got wiped out in the 80s. Some of it was just too close to the Arkansas River or the immediately adjacent floodplain.  Going through the towns was also intentional.  Going close rather than through would be better for a highspeed line. 

[Transport_Oklahoma]

Edmond Sun article on rail

http://www.edmondsun.com/local/local_story_091235234.html

[cannon_fodder]

Done deal. 

OKC is smart enough to use the outlying communities to get what it wants.  Tulsa fights with our outlying areas.  Or at least don't ever get our crap together to get anything done.  What does the article have to say about Tulsa Rail?

"I think one day you'll see passenger rail to Tulsa from Oklahoma City. I think at some point we'll see passenger rail service from Tulsa to Kansas City. And that ties into St. Louis and the Midwest."

When asked, Ridley said the Oklahoma City route to Kansas would be the easiest route to put in play. Arcadia is the nearest stop to Edmond that the Oklahoma City to Tulsa track affords. Ridley said this track would be more difficult to implement because of geometrics and the existing track condition.

"It's owned by the state and we're using it for freight operations, but it certainly cannot handle passenger service," he said.

Short answer:  No.

Here's what will happen:

The rail service will extend from OKC via several other Oklahoma communities, then on to Wichita using stimulus money and Oklahoma tax payer funds.  It will then be subsidized by Oklahoma tax payers for operation. 

Then when the time comes to expand the lines even more, Oklahoma City won't fight for a line to Tulsa - they will jump on board with pushing the line from Wichita to Kansas City.  That route will have support from all constituents in Kansas and there is no way Oklahoma City bothers making a fuss or offers to subsidize a line to Tulsa.  From there, it is logical to connect to Jeff City and St. Louis (Missouri line) and eventually to Chicago.

Poof!  Tulsa is left out in the cold and America's Cross roads has better access to commerce to the South and through to Chicago - again subsidized with Tulsa tax money.  Meanwhile, Tulsa will continue to pay tolls to drive out of town to where ever we are going and the state will take toll money from anyone with the nerve to come to Tulsa.

[sgrizzle]

Edmond Sun article on rail

http://www.edmondsun.com/local/local_story_091235234.html

Yes, we know that the most important route for Amtrak is connecting OKC all the way to... Edmond.

[Red Arrow]

Then when the time comes to expand the lines even more, Oklahoma City won't fight for a line to Tulsa - they will jump on board with pushing the line from Wichita to Kansas City.  That route will have support from all constituents in Kansas and there is no way Oklahoma City bothers making a fuss or offers to subsidize a line to Tulsa.  From there, it is logical to connect to Jeff City and St. Louis (Missouri line) and eventually to Chicago.

The route map on the Amtrak web site already shows a route through Newton (30 mi north of Wichita) to KC and beyond.  Routes already exist from KC to Chicago through St Louis or a route that cut through the southeast corner of Iowa.

Tulsa is going to have to work hard to get Amtrak anything through here.  I hope we get it.

[Chicken Little]

You know what's INCREDIBLY pathetic?  The math.  OKC isn't trying to figure out how to get to MCI.  For them, it's the same distance (317 v 320 mi) through ICT or TUL.  And Amtrak, given the option, would probably prefer to go through our metro (1,000,000) over ICT's (600,000).

So it REALLY is about Edmond.  Those jackasses would steer a train AWAY from 1,000,000 Tulsans to take care of 75,000 Edmondites.  I don't begrudge Edmond anything, it's less stinky than a lot of OKC.  But they don't rate a train before Tulsa.  Sorry.

[godboko71]

You know I might consider going to OKC and KC if we had train service, would make a little weekend getaway or a business trip more feasible since I could work on the train instead of having to worry about driving.

[TheArtist]

 We all know what the likely outcome is going to be here. Tulsa without rail connection to other cities. But that doesnt mean we have to be left completely out of the rail picture. If they want their rail line, lets at least push for a good chunk to fund commuter rail and spur TOD within Tulsa and its suburbs.

Even if we were to get rail to OKC or wherever in the future. Having the downtown stations, good pedestrian friendly areas around those with TOD type development will make things cheaper and better for us when we do go that route. That downtown chunk, its bridges, infrastructure improvements etc. is going to be a fairly expensive venture in and of itself. Get it out of the way first and also use it to encourage the kind of growth we want to see in this city.

I can see whats going to happen, we are going to push for rail between Tulsa and OKC only and then end up with nothing.

Go ahead and raise a big stink and push for the line between Tulsa and OKC, but if it really looks like we wont get it,,, have a back up plan in place. Say, "Ok, ok, you can have your other line IF we get such and such amount for something IN Tulsa county.  Which could in the future be linked to a line going to OKC. Plus by getting it started, it will then make any future jump to OKC or elsewhere, less expensive. 

We are so good about not getting a danged thing. I can see thats just whats going to happen again unless we play this right. We do have a chip to play here, dont waste it. 

[Red Arrow]

I have to agree with Artist. (It happens more often than you think Artist,  I just don't post a bunch of "+1"s.)

If we have a good rail system in place around the city and region, when it comes time to go to the well for Amtrak again we will be more attractive to visitors. Would you go to NYC and need a personal car? Probably not. Let's work on getting Tulsa car independent for those who wish to be so.

[OurTulsa]

I think I agree with CF...the City to establish itself as the rail passenger hub, or rail hub period, will benefit...assuming that we do redevelop a worth while rail network. 

Not that I would go so far as to say that rail travel will surpass air anytime in my life but for comparison sake, what would Dallas be without DFW?  Certainly not what it is.

This is why value the Port of Catoosa - connectivity.

Artist and Red are right as well.  In the meantime we have to improve accessibility in our own city...because once the train comes and stops then what.  How will people get around...will they be limited to a few districts downtown or a rental car, cab, or poor bus transit system.  Besides, I'm of the opinion, that the more we invest in reestablishing livable - walkable - pleasantly dense urban environments the more attractive we become as a city, for our own enjoyment and to the outside world. 

[Transport_Oklahoma]

Another article on rail from the Edmond Sun

http://www.edmondsun.com/opinion/local_story_094000543.html?keyword=secondarystory

[Chicken Little]

Another article on rail from the Edmond Sun

http://www.edmondsun.com/opinion/local_story_094000543.html?keyword=secondarystory

Thanks for the link.  From the Edmund Sun Editorial:

More recently, Ridley has said it would cost $1 billion to build high-speed rail between Oklahoma City and Tulsa, and therefore it's unfeasible. But that's a straw man argument. The state owns more than 800 miles of railroad, including a perfectly good track between the stations in downtown Oklahoma City and Tulsa should be able to support passenger rail. There is support for light rail within the metro areas, both locally and in Washington. The key to economic growth is the convenience of transportation. Edmond, Norman, Midwest City, Tinker, Shawnee, Yukon and Oklahoma City would all benefit. What the state lacks is the willpower to make passenger rail a reality.

The test of good government is not how much money you can spend, or how big a highway you can build. The test is how effectively you can provide the common services needed for the economy to run smoothly and the people to prosper. It takes smart, progressive thinking.

ODOT's club-fisted handling of the I-40 project has at least tripled the projected cost. One wonders if it wouldn't have been less costly to just run through traffic in a tunnel beneath the new boulevard, saving millions of dollars in land acquisition and construction costs.

ODOT Director Gary Ridley in Collinsville, 2007.

More bad math.  So Ridley says the line is now $1 billion?  Which is it?  $1 Billion?  $2 Billion?  $200 million?  I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me what is so unsafe about sending an Amtrak train from OKC to TUL next Wednesday?  I mean, we already have freight running this route every day, right?  I think somebody's avoiding an honest discussion.

[Red Arrow]

I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me what is so unsafe about sending an Amtrak train from OKC to TUL next Wednesday?  I mean, we already have freight running this route every day, right?  I think somebody's avoiding an honest discussion.

The issue is how fast the train could go.  Is there someone here well enough connected to the RR to find out how fast the freight trains go? 

I have flown over the tracks between Sapulpa and Chandler at about 1000 ft above.  The tracks themselves appear to be OK.  There are numerous relatively tight turns.  There are many (apparently from 1000 ft above) unprotected at grade crossings.  The route goes through the built up section of most of the towns.  When most people think of Amtrak, they think at least 80 MPH. 

I'm sure a passenger train could be run, but not very fast.