OK State Legislature: Bi-partisan idiocy

[Red Arrow]

I resent that the religious wingnuts have hijacked the Republican Party.  I just cannot buy into the Democrat party, especially at the national level.  As mentioned, local democrats are frequently Republican Lite which is OK by me.  It gives me an alternative at the polls sometimes.  Keep the Kennedys in NY and MA.  Keep Pelosi in CA.

[Delmo Gillete]

Artist - that was quite a post and a background I pretty-much share. Thank you for stirring some great memories.

I am bothered by the comments in this thread (and elsewhere) relating political affiliation and/or religious beliefs to intelligence. Where, exactly is the evidence of that?

The easiest thing to do is brand everyone with whom you disagree an idiot. I think this is the most important change I've seen since kid-hood. I was brought up to always assume someone else has more knowledge on any given topic than I do - until presented with evidence to the contrary.

This often presents itself but cannot be predicted by voting tendencies or bible ownership (or readership, or adherence).

[FOTD]

Delmo: This is the devils advocate, a friend so to speak. The lack of intelligence becomes evident when politicians interject their religious beliefs on everyone at the cost of constitutionality. They are challenged. Idiot is too strong. It's reserved for Cheney and Bush.

Artist:These "issues" are diversions from serious work that carries a political risk. There's no risk of invoking religion when that's who you cater to. They certainly don't cater to everyone. Just the one's they know will re elect them.....

Red: Can you add 'keep Norm Coleman in Minnesota'?

Thank you.

[nathanm]

 I can only guess that blabbering nonsense, rolling your eyes around, then flopping around on the floor would have been a definite no no.    

That's what I did in church when I was a kid, although not for any reason having anything to do with being touched by the hand of God.. 

[cannon_fodder]

I am bothered by the comments in this thread (and elsewhere) relating political affiliation and/or religious beliefs to intelligence. Where, exactly is the evidence of that?

Well, to take over AOX roll as the devils advocate . . .

Talking snakes, virgin births, man-ghost-gods, speaking in tongues, flat earth, men living inside fish, faith healing, stoning people for a litany of "crimes," following portions of the word of God while ignoring others, actively fighting biology, geology and other sciences, confusing myth with fact, ignoring anything and everything that contradicts stories and beliefs held in the bronze age.  Quick reference check - what else from the bronze age do we cling to?  For that matter, name another topic where someone holds a belief and advocates that belief to others and the less proof and logic used to support that belief, the better.

What?  You have absolutely no proof at all and it makes no logical sense but you still base your life on it and pass laws to force other people to do the same?  That's fantastic!  The same people advocating in the Oklahoma legislature for Christian laws will make fun of Mormon, Hindu, or Scientology beliefs that are equally absurd.   Well hey, there's no atheists in a foxhole - presumably because sleep deprivation, stress, and fear  lead to rational thought above all else.

It has nothing to do with intelligence of course.  Intelligence is in reference to the raw ability of a particular brain to reason.  Most religious people have the ability to reason, it's just far easier to accept things on faith.  In all cultures in all parts of the world people have made stuff up to explain what they otherwise could not.  It's just that most of those people didn't decide they were right above all others and force convert people (ever notice in the Bible the Egyptians, Babylonians, Greeks, nor Romans ever forced the Jews to convert?  They were more/less tolerant on various levels but religion was not their primary concern).

To be perfectly clear:  religious belief is in no way indicative of a lack of intelligence.  HOWEVER, religious beliefs are proudly held outside the realm of intelligent thought.  So of course correlating matters of faith with intelligence is of no use whatsoever.


Artist:

Your last paragraph flirts with my understanding of the situation.  The issues is not that we are overly religious, it is the brand of religion that is practiced.  FUNDAMENTALISM. 

FUNDAMENTALISM is a bad thing when held as a belief by a Muslim.  His WORD OF GOD is wrong.  Laws he passes based on his book are stupid medieval holdovers.  But Baptist flavored Christian fundamentalism and the laws passed based on that bronze age holdover are righteous!   In many instances in my conversations people will readily admit that they would like to see politicians pass laws to enforce their religious beliefs on others, which is not comforting at all.

In most parts of the world and throughout most of history religion has colored but not run society.  When religion runs society it is usually because that is all that was left or because religion was used to yield power over the masses.  Usually, religion is ancillary to society and like most modern people looked at with a healthy degree of skepticism. 

What many Fundamentalist Baptists don't understand is that the rest of the country doesn't really believe the Bible is literal truth.  Catholic doctrine long ago abandoned that notion, many protestant churches never held it, it doesn't even exist as a concept in Eastern Religions (that there is one truth), even the Mormon Elders I've spoken with don't try to defend everything as literal truth (literalism/fundamentalism is not a tenet of Mormonism).  In most parts of the country you can walk into a church and say "Jonah didn't really live in a giant fish for 3 days" and the congregation would look at you like "ummm, yeah.  It's a story meant to teach bronze age persons a life lesson."  Friends don't get it when I try to explain that the statistic that 80% of the nation considers themselves Christian does not reflect that 80% of the nation actually believes what is said in the Bible.

In much of Oklahoma the Bible is literal and should control your life and that of your society.  The laws you support, the people you vote for, what kids are taught in school and in some instances especially your finances.  I can not attest that this is a change in Oklahoma.  But I've lived in other parts of the country, was raised Catholic, and have traveled a good bit and can attest that the Fundamentalist strain of religion adhered to in Oklahoma is different than most of the nation.

Believe as you wish.  Do what you want.  But when your belief and actions interfere with my reality, I start getting concerned.   I won't tell you what to do in your church, don't tell me what to do outside of it.

/unedited rant.  Sure I went off course and was not clear.  Sorry.

[Elaine]

Let the 2009 Monkey Trials begin! It's like some people here are proud of their stupidity.

[TURobY]

I love Tulsa, but the state of Oklahoma is SERIOUSLY making it harder and harder to live here. I know it sounds silly, but couldn't Tulsa declare itself sovereign? Remember when Oklahoma claimed itself as a sovereign state? This would just follow suit... 

[Rex]

cannon is right on the money. And Turoby is correct...it is hard to want to stay here. (To which all the By Godders will shout, "Well, don't let the door hit you in the a** By God!"

After I finish, I don't want to stay here too long.  My boss only stays here because as he said, "Why be a wolf in the pack, when you can be a wolf with the sheep."

There is a twisted bitterness that seems to flow through a lot of these folks. They smile and praise the Lord, while sharpening their daggers.  And I have never lived somewhere where people seem so genuinely happy at the misery and misfortune of others.

[Hometown]

This is my Hometown.  I was here before ORU. 

I was here when most Tulsans attended mainstream Christian denominations, when it was considered rude to push your religion on other people.  There were two religious nuts at Nathan Hale when I was there. 

Tulsa has changed and the change is not for the better.

During Reagan's presidency the Republican party made a cynical decision to exploit the Evangelical vote.  It won them some elections but now its a ball and chain.  I've heard from more than one Republican that wants the nuts out of their party.  Oklahoma is, of course, behind the curve.

[PonderInc]

Midtown could seced from South Tulsa ("Jesusland") and the rest of the state all in one fell swoop. 

I'm searching for a downside to this idea... and coming up empty... 

[waterboy]

Artist, I was struck with how similar our upbringings were, yet they were separated by at least a decade and a half. That tells me that indeed, things have changed since our youth in Oklahoma. We weren't always a radically religious city. Of course, no one complained in our city when my fellow grade school kids were marched out of speech class to visit the nearby Episcopal church each Wednesday morning for what was called "bible class". That was around 1959. Parents signed off on it. How ironic that speech was the class usurped by the local evangelicals to teach us religion.

Your religious posts are always impressive CF. Fundamentalism may indeed be the brand of religion that causes our angst. I just wish I was as confident as the rest of you that intelligence is not related to our red state religious radicalism here. If intelligence is the capability to learn, then you're right. We certainly are not a disturbed or mentally damaged community (polluted watersheds notwithstanding). If it is described as the ability to use what has been learned by comparing, contrasting, internalizing and deducing in order to form solutions to complex problems, then no we are indeed a stupid state whose religious radicalism makes us so. Does that make sense? Its like Forrest Gump says, "Stupid is as stupid does".

Nowhere have I seen any definition of intelligence as including faith. Nowhere. Faith it seems to me would be the opposite concept. Therefore, an unshakable faith in the Bible is not very intelligent. Scientists don't have faith in Darwin's theory, they simply find its reasoning and deductions compelling and difficult to disprove. Just like gravity. Now don't jump to the conclusion that I think religion or its followers are stupid. Their practice of religion often makes them stupid.

When Catholic parents won't let their kids play with non-Catholics, its stupid. When church members circle the wagons and offer only shallow courtesy to outsiders its stupid. When our state legislators attempt to harass a university for the practice of free speech, its stupid.

[Red Arrow]

Red: Can you add 'keep Norm Coleman in Minnesota'?

Thank you.

MN is Bluer than OK is Red.  Norm Coleman is actually below my radar.  Since there are no Republicans in MN, he must be a renegade Democrat.  I have seen Al Franken on Letterman.  Funny man.  Unfortunately, Al makes you look like a Republican. (No insult intended.)  As a favor, I'll agree to keep Norm in MN but only on the condition that you keep Al there as well.

[buck]

I don't post on here much but I have to say "The Artist's" post is one of the best I've ever read on a message board. I moved to the Tulsa area four years ago from Colorado and I've noticed a lot of the same things the lady he was talking about mentioned. Being a Christian and also a Democrat, it seems like those two things together are rare to come by here. It's been hard to find a church that doesn't do the things that he discusses in his post.

[Hometown]

Why do you believe Christians and Democrats are rarely joined?  Democrats have had the moral high ground throughout my life.  More than a few mainstream Christian denominations were involved with the antiwar movement during the Vietnam era. Christianity and the Left joined forces.  And Republicans, on the other hand, have taken anti-Christian stands over and over.  Today they are working to pass legislation that would diminish the ability of poor people to seek justice in our courts.  That's hardly the kind of thing Jesus would go for.

I think that a thorough investigation into fundamentalist churches in Oklahoma and their involvement in politics would yield a lot of damming evidence.

We were taught it was rude to force your religious beliefs on other people and you know what?  It is -- rude and illegal.

The one constant in life in the U.S. is change and there will come a day when the evangelical movement is greatly diminished.  [Though Oklahoma will probably be the last to let go.]

[buck]

I don't believe that at all, where I grew up going to church and politics were usually seperate things. At our church there were people with all types of political beliefs. Here though it seems that churches are more political and less tolerant of having members with opposing political views.