Tulsa’s Bad Smell Will Continue for the Foreseeable Future

[Hometown]

I was hopeful that the Sunoco Refinery would be converted to a terminal (as Sunoco had speculated) and that Tulsa's Refinery Odors would diminish.  But I read with disappointment that Sunoco has sold their Tulsa refinery and that it will continue to operate as a refinery.

How do you handle knowing that Tulsa will probably never be as good as she could be?

http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/article.aspx?subjectid=49&articleid=20090417_49_A1_Tieilv171134&archive=yes

[godboko71]

As much as I would like to join you in the disappointment, I am pretty happy the refinery will remain open.  Though we are largely unaffected by the recession we can't really absorb that many well paying jobs.

Also as a country we already don't have enough refining power, last thing we need to do is lose a refinery. I am all for diversification of our energy use, but until we are using other means we should not hurt ourselves by diminishing the energy we do have.

The weaning off oil will take our lifetimes; in the meantime we don't want to make the lives of most citizens harder by unfairly raising energy costs. Think about it, in Oklahoma right now how else are you going to get around besides a vehicle powered by refined oil products?

Until we have better mass transit options should we really make life harder for most Americans? We both know the answer to that question.

As for the smell, if the upgrades are completed that should help some, just something we have to live with, part of our economic makeup.

As for Tulsa not being as good as it could be, I really wish I knew how having a refinery holds us back.

No matter what there are many fights to be won before we are less oil dependent. Let's recycle more plastics, let's reduce power usage per household, let's get better hybrid technology in cars, let's get more and better mass transit, andlet's solve the real problems first before we worry about things like refineries.

[FOTD]

As much as I would like to join you in the disappointment, I am pretty happy the refinery will remain open.  Though we are largely unaffected by the recession we can't really absorb that many well paying jobs.

Also as a country we already don't have enough refining power, last thing we need to do is lose a refinery. I am all for diversification of our energy use, but until we are using other means we should not hurt ourselves by diminishing the energy we do have.

The weaning off oil will take our lifetimes; in the meantime we don't want to make the lives of most citizens harder by unfairly raising energy costs. Think about it, in Oklahoma right now how else are you going to get around besides a vehicle powered by refined oil products?

Until we have better mass transit options should we really make life harder for most Americans? We both know the answer to that question.

As for the smell, if the upgrades are completed that should help some, just something we have to live with, part of our economic makeup.

As for Tulsa not being as good as it could be, I really wish I knew how having a refinery holds us back.

No matter what there are many fights to be won before we are less oil dependent. Let's recycle more plastics, let's reduce power usage per household, let's get better hybrid technology in cars, let's get more and better mass transit, andlet's solve the real problems first before we worry about things like refineries.

You remind me of that character from Snow White....so change your id to "Happy"!

Keeping 400 employees is not worth the lung issue for the city......

[Hometown]

I'm a life long Liberal that is pro-Oil.  Baby Bush wanted us to build new refineries and I argued here for a new state-of-the-art refinery in Cushing built with federal and state assistance in an Industrial Park owned by Tulsa.  Converting the refinery to a terminal was a realistic possibility that would have saved some oil industry jobs and would have eliminated the toxic emissions that have hampered development of large swaths of otherwise desirable areas of Tulsa.  With the planned additions to the refinery it looks like it will be here for the foreseeable future.  Now four hundred jobs have been saved but I suspect that far more jobs would have been gained with my plan and Tulsa's livability quotient would have soared.

I love oil (read big money) but I don't like 100 year old refineries or folks breathing toxins.  I also love Tulsa and it is saddens me to see this opportunity (to convert our ancient refinery to a terminal) slip away.

[Renaissance]

At least the modernization will still go forward. 

[waterboy]

Actually, HT, their may be some optimism to be gained from the sale. It was sold. That means it is not in such a decrepit state, with such immense deferred liabilities that it could not be sold. Now it gets upgrades to make cleaner air and they will probably keep some money back for remediation. It is a marketable piece of property than can be remediated if and when it is no longer profitable. Sunoco could have simply filed bankruptcy and dumped the cleanup on the taxpayer.

[FOTD]

Actually, HT, their may be some optimism to be gained from the sale. It was sold. That means it is not in such a decrepit state, with such immense deferred liabilities that it could not be sold. Now it gets upgrades to make cleaner air and they will probably keep some money back for remediation. It is a marketable piece of property than can be remediated if and when it is no longer profitable. Sunoco could have simply filed bankruptcy and dumped the cleanup on the taxpayer.

Too much info, aquaman.

"Now it gets upgrades to make cleaner air and they will probably keep some money back for remediation make-up. It is a marketable piece of property nightmare that (sp) can be remediated if and when it is no longer profitable."

Looks to me like you've been celebrating 4-20.

[waterboy]

Just found out what 420 was today. Ironic isn't it that it surpasses Columbine in notoriety?

I admit I am more hopeful than I should be that the land will ever become marketed as anything but a refinery in my lifetime. It would be pretty amazing to see it happen.

[FOTD]

Just found out what 420 was today. Ironic isn't it that it surpasses Columbine in notoriety?

I admit I am more hopeful than I should be that the land will ever become marketed as anything but a refinery in my lifetime. It would be pretty amazing to see it happen.

1) It would take more than a lifetime to clean up.
2) Oh that smell does wonders for economic development....does non-attainment strike a familiar note?
3) SPEAKING OF SMELL, 4/20 IS NOT NOTORIOUS. YOUR COMPARISON MINIMIZES THE COLUMBINE TRAGEDY.

You've given good reason to why you should know more about 420 and you definitely need some "experience".

Save Mother Earth...we all breathe the same air!

[YoungTulsan]

How does the Sinclair refinery compare in age, toxicity, and likelihood of rehabilitation of the land?

[FOTD]

How does the Sinclair refinery compare in age, toxicity, and likelihood of rehabilitation of the land?

It's highest and best use after a "cleanup" would be parkland because no lender and borrower could get the necessary certification to escape the future liability potential.

[waterboy]

disagree. ARCO was cleaned up further upstream within a few years. Other refineries of the same period have been reclaimed too. We may end up with high speed trains and very few people to use them when the combined effects of toxics we've dumped for generations come back to haunt us.

Your attitude is a bit high handed. Especially as regards what experience I may need. "Notorious" as in an illegal, infamous, controversial, addictive, drug whose euphoric qualities are not only exagerrated but pretty useless unless you have a particular medical need or just want to waste time, gain weight and lose employment. Columbine deserved more attention than some cute little inside joke about getting high. I had several people refer to it today and even heard NPR spend way too much time discussing it. Very little on Columbine.  More on the OKC bombing. Maybe there was a better word than nororiety. Forgetfulness.

[FOTD]

Intersting that CNBC spent much time coverage on Columbine and not much of anything on 420. Did you have NPR on all day?

Always took those little murderers for goths...far from it...."normal" kids....as far as you can go with that description before you run right into them "becoming" psychopaths.

Don't be so forgetful....others will attribute it to smoking pot or alzheimers.

Tulsa, clean up your space!

[sgrizzle]

At least the modernization will still go forward. 

Wrong refinery.

[cannon_fodder]

Griz, the article mentions that they are pumping nearly $200,000,000 to modernize the refinery.  That is this companies M.O.  Buy a refinery that someone is begging to unload on the cheap, pump in some money, profit.  Specifically my research indicates they want it to produce low sulfur diesel, of which there is a current shortage (hence diesel has been higher than gas since the low sulfur requirement).   You can't build new refineries anymore, but you can buy old ones and overhaul them.

I can't predict exactly what they will do, but this is an improvement over the status quo - which was to let it rot.

400 local jobs directly to the refinery and at least 400 ancillary jobs, most of them in fabrication, engineering, or other oil support jobs that pay well.  Throw in the residual effect that 800 good jobs has on retail and services, the tax base, etc.  That's a huge economic impact.

As for reclamation of the land, the very short answer is:  no.  It has been used to process oil for nearly 100 years.  Much of that time totally unregulated.   Without direct knowledge of THAT refinery, similar situations are hopelessly contaminated with heavy metals (remember leaded gasoline?), chemical leaching, and of course crude residue in the top 10-20 feet of soil.  The techniques used in the past had no consideration for the land they were sitting on and refineries are essentially prohibited from cleaning it up (all or nothing).

I don't know what the pollution impact of the refinery is, but if given the choice between the economic benefits of renovating it or having 200 acres of abandoned toxic wasteland - I think I'll keep the refinery.