$38 million development being proposed across from BOK Center

[cannon_fodder]

On the parking thing:

You park about a block away in a vast parking lot at Woodland Hills.  You then go inside and walk blocks and blocks around in circles.  Generally to go to just a couple of stores.

I'm not arguing the parking is perfect downtown, but there is walking involved at malls too.  Hell, some people go to malls TO walk.  But for some reason, it isn't a problem at some locations but is at others.

If/when there is a mass of stores downtown it won't be as much of an issue.  But so long as retail downtown is sporadic it seems like a chore to walk a couple blocks to get to a store.  I hope that changes . . .

[T-TownMike]

I will be happy to see these types of developments and more in Downtown. I can't stress enough the importance of mixed development being vital to any downtown's core. Tulsa, in general could use more mid-to upscale Hotels, especially in the downtown hub, along with retail, and restaurants, entertainment, etc... It's slowly getting there, but it would be nice to see some of these side projects actually come to fruition. I have to say as an outsider, looking in, Tulsa could be a little more progressive when it comes to making these things happen-it's a tad disappointing, how slowly things move in the local government.

[Oil Capital]

Does anyone have any idea what they mean by an "urban Hilton Hotel"?

[DowntownNow]

Oil Capital....it means they have not yet secured a Hilton flag for this development.  Several things will have to be put into place before they can establish which brand or flag it will be.  I'm assuming once the land is purchased or contracted, they will move to forward with due diligence which will also include a hotel market study that will help identify the actual flag or level or serivce and brand.

This development is a long way off from start of construction and not all the pieces are in line yet.

[T-TownMike]

If you knew what it was like to find a quaility suite in Tulsa, especially in downtown,  there wouldn't even be a need to do a hotel study. Surely, these contractors have done their due diligence before commiting themselves to spend close to $2 mil on the parcel, alone.

What's the hold-up? Sounds more like the city is moving at a snail's pace again.

[cannon_fodder]

Oil Capital....it means they have not yet secured a Hilton flag for this development. 

Do you have information no one else has?

The One Place proposal, Eggleston said, has all the pieces in place to make it successful.

The team includes Leinbach Properties, a residential developer; Hilton Hotels; American Liberty Hospitality, a hotel financing company; Rachel W. Zebrowski, an architect with Miles Associates; David Parker, a hotel planning consultant; and Cooper Construction Estimating LLC.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20090506_11_A1_Thisar949897

Hilton already owns (manages, brands) the Doubetree downtown and many other hotels in Tulsa.  They know the market.  Wouldn't Hilton be pissed if they were to be listed as part of a development team and they were not really involved?  

If someone knows the market and wants to risk millions betting on our city, why are you against that?

In fact, why are you against pretty much everything that happens in Downtown Tulsa?  It has no nightlife.  No development.  No one should build anything.  There aren't people there.  No where to park.  Seriously, I don't get it.

Maybe I am misunderstanding your pessimism for hostility.  I have my doubts that this fantastic project will be resurrected and completed, but why crap all over it?  Same for the rest of downtown.  It isn't perfect, but it is better than it was and I enjoy going down there.  

[Hoss]

Do you have information no one else has?
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20090506_11_A1_Thisar949897

Hilton already owns (manages, brands) the Doubetree downtown and many other hotels in Tulsa.  They know the market.  Wouldn't Hilton be pissed if they were to be listed as part of a development team and they were not really involved?  

If someone knows the market and wants to risk millions betting on our city, why are you against that?

In fact, why are you against pretty much everything that happens in Downtown Tulsa?  It has no nightlife.  No development.  No one should build anything.  There aren't people there.  No where to park.  Seriously, I don't get it.

Maybe I am misunderstanding your pessimism for hostility.  I have my doubts that this fantastic project will be resurrected and completed, but why crap all over it?  Same for the rest of downtown.  It isn't perfect, but it is better than it was and I enjoy going down there.  

Same here.

Sometimes I wonder if DTN shouldn't change that screenname to DowntownNever.

[T-TownMike]

Kansas City has already voted in, built the Sprint Center, has it operational BEFORE the BOK. Revamped Kaufman Stadium, revamping Arrowhead, built the Power and Light District, built an 18 story HQ building for H&R Block, improved roads,etc in the same time frame that Tulsa has been dragging their feet on that parcel of land.


Where is the LEADERSHIP?

[Nik]

Power & Light District is awesome

[T-TownMike]

Power & Light District is awesome

I think so. It certainly helped make KC's downtown more vibrant and more enjoyable. It definitely has an urban vibe and I wish the leaders in Tulsa would take notice of what makes a vibrant downtown and move to make that happen.

[RecycleMichael]

Same here.

Sometimes I wonder if DTN shouldn't change that screenname to DowntownNever.

He puts the Down in Downtown.

He must be a miserable person.

[DowntownNow]

Oh good try Michael.  'E' for effort I suppose, but rather than just blather meaningless dribble and live in imagination land, I take a practical approach to development matters.  I have always supported Tulsa area development, particularly downtown development, but facts are facts and assumption and innuendo are just that.

As a matter of fact, I am familiar with some of the players involved and other hotel developers in the area.  It just takes asking the right people the right question.  I never said this group has not had discussions with Hilton.  Hilton has been in discussions with the group but no flag/brand has been determined. 

Hotel companies such as Hilton, Marriott and IHG (InterConinential Hotels Group - i.e. Holiday Inn brands) often require project specific market studies in order to identify brand/flag.  It's what helps differentiate between the nine different brands/flags (in Hilton's case) of hotel within their portfolio.  It's what helps determine if a market is supportive of a full-service Hilton, a limited service Hilton Garden Inn or an Embassy Suites.  It is also a tool used to determine if a company even wants to offer a brand to a developer.

While the City and Chamber have produced their own hotel studies within the last few years, this is usually not good enough for major brand hotel companies.  Might be if you want a Value-Inn and Suites, but not a major flag/brand.  These studies will require a developer investment sometimes between $10,000-30,000.  Only logical that a developer would want to secure the land first, and that in this case, requires some time.

It's never as easy as most of you seem to believe...not always "build it and they will come."  This is the short-sightedness of most that have recently posted in here.  There are far greater decisions to be made behind the scenes that require time, effort and feasibility. 

Furthermore, I dare Connon-fodder, Hoss or RecycleMichael to find one posting where I have stated there is no nightlife, no development, no people, nowhere to park...please, be just as insightful and informed in your remarks are you are in your own beliefs.  In the meantime, if any of three have some factual basis or knowledge of how these things work that contradicts what I have said, pipe up and let's hear it. 

As for not supporting this endeavour, I am in full support of it and hope it does get realized.  Again, never siad I wasnt...it would be huge for downtown development.  In the meantime, it does not stop anyone from asking questions, helping people understand the process involved or commenting on the goings-on.  Some people may want more information than you so they might be informed before running off and assuming all is golden and dandy.

[DowntownNow]

Oh and Cannon-fodder, just because Hilton owns, manages or flags a hotel in South Tulsa, that doesnt mean it or any other hotel company will support one in downtown necessarily.  Hotel markets are comprised of smaller markets within one city.  Feasibility is determined by many factors and is based more on immediate surroundings to its proposed location than the city as a whole.  In fact, a Hilton placed in one area of the city may prevent the development of another Hilton brand within a particular radius to prevent direct competition.  These are regarded as protected territories.  In fact, just because Hilton owns, manages or brands a hotel in downtown is not reason enough to them to support another.  It is all based on the market study to be created for the new location.

In the industry today, it is more common for the larger hotel companies to franchise their brands out to proven management companies and developers than to build and manage it themselves.   That is most typically reserved for the largest markets.

[we vs us]

Interesting.  According to the Hilton website, there're 13 different Hilton brand properties within 15 miles of DT Tulsa.  One of those is the Doubletree, whose business would be cannibalized by a new full service Hilton concept literally just blocks away.  The Doubletree has been on the market off and on for awhile now, so there's nothing keeping it from becoming another brand entirely. Still, that has to be consideration for the developers.

[cannon_fodder]

Oh and Cannon-fodder, just because Hilton owns, manages or flags a hotel in South Tulsa, that doesnt mean it or any other hotel company will support one in downtown necessarily...

DoubleTree is a Hilton brand.  Pretty sure there is one of those in downtown Tulsa.  But since you are (now) the resident hotel expert you knew that. 

My guess is the negative impression results from the fact that I do not recall you being positive on any proposal, development, or initiative for downtown.  The ballpark is bad.  The downtown tax for the stadium and improvements is bad.  The BOk Center will fail.  A new hotel is a bad idea.  The lofts being put in are in the wrong price range.  The sister for the Tribune Lofts is a bad project.  Mayor Taylor is scamming the citizens by giving the BOk Center to her Daughters wedding.  Moving City Hall was a bad idea.  The KOTV building won't happen.  HUD funding problems. The mayor sucks. The roads are horrible. And of course this latest proposal won't ever happen (on which your first thought was that it was a scam and the company doesn't really exist).

You are correct, I attributed comments to you that you did not make.  But when you hate everything going on or think everything will fail, it's easy to attribute common negative comments to you even if you specifically didn't say it.  I don't think it is intentional, but you have become the poster child for hating on all downtown projects.  I agree with many of your perspectives and would like to see other things done differently, but you are consistently negative about anything going on downtown.

I guess it is our problem for perceiving you as being negative towards downtown.  But since several people seem to have that impression there is a probably a reason for it.  I don't want blind faith or hollow excitement, but not everything is bad. 

I have scanned your last 60 posts (going back to March), and they were all negative.  Again, I agree with many of them and others raise fair points, but there was nothing positive to interject anywhere in there?  Hence, people just assume all your comments are negative.