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$38 million development being proposed across from BOK Center

Started by Hoss, May 05, 2009, 08:20:56 PM

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Hoss

Quote from: SXSW on May 11, 2009, 12:00:53 PM
To me Denver is basically an extension of Riverside which is one of the busiest streets in the city and the street many use to access downtown.  Denver, Main, Boston, and Elgin (IMO) should be the main N-S streets for new development of retail, along with 3rd, 5th, and 6th (also 1st and 2nd in Blue Dome) 

Denver does link Riverside to Gilcrease Hills (at Edison by the Voter Board).  I use that route quite often; I have a Grandmother that lives in Skyline Ridge at Union and Edison.

Hometown

Well most of us are eager to see development but I would like to add a couple of notes:

This structure would be more attractive if it incorporated a step-back design.  And parking is a problem downtown. 

I know there is an entrenched believe that we have too much parking downtown but other areas of Tulsa that offer alternatives to downtown have a large amount of dedicated parking close in to business.  The truth is that Tulsans don't want to take a chance on finding convenient parking and if downtown wants to capture their business it should strive to be as convenient.

Parking and good urban design are not mutually exclusive.

San Francisco is famous for being a walkable town but you may not know that there is a large amount of parking available in Downtown San Francisco.  Moscone Center has large dedicated parking lots.  Their ballpark has a large dedicated parking lot.  There are many municipal and private garages located at strategic points throughout the downtown area.  Many of the residential buildings have parking.

There are really only a handful of truly walkable cities in the U.S.  Tulsa is a lot closer to the Los Angeles model. 


rwarn17588

Quote from: Hometown on May 11, 2009, 01:03:11 PM

And parking is a problem downtown. 


For the one-thousandth time, it is not. If anything, there is an overabundance of parking.

Hometown

Two recent situations come to mind.
 
--We were looking for a retail space in the Brady District.  We found a couple of decent spaces but they did not have ample close by parking.  There was a lot of parking nearby but it was dedicated to other facilities.  We didn't want to count on our potential customers having to hunt for parking and then walking X number of blocks.

--I was considering working at 320 S. Boston but the parking situation was definitely a draw back.  We figured it would cost me at least $75 a month compared to the my current situation where I have free parking.

I have heard the arguments about parking and I respectfully disagree with those that believe current parking is adequate.  A large number of empty lots downtown does not mean that there is a great deal of convenient parking close to the business you might wish to patronize.

Time, convenience and cost are decisive factors when you are deciding where to shop or work or play.


TheTed

Quote from: dsjeffries on May 11, 2009, 12:10:08 PM
Artist, the problem that restaurant faces is not due to visibility or people's perceptions of downtown. Their problem is terrible food. Mr. Rojas has mentioned that the restaurant is only busy on event days. Well, it's likely that a different set of 18,000 BOKC-goers, some out-of-towners, see the restaurant and decide to try it. It only makes sense that this set of people, having received terrible service and worse food, will NOT go back during the week. People will continue to only go there when desperate because it's awful. When other restaurants open in the area, Casa Laredo won't even be busy during peak times.

Other restaurants in downtown don't have this problem, so one has to wonder why this one keeps popping up on the news, declaring again, "Woe is me". Please. Get better food and better staff and people will go there. Until then, shut up about your slow business.

//end vent
I can't speak to the quality of that particular restaurant, as I've never been there.

But that place is located on the corner of two of our famous downtown speedways, aka one-way streets. All these four-lane one-way streets do nothing to enhance downtown. Take away two lanes, add some streetscaping, wide sidewalks with outdoor dining and you've got a downtown that is designed for something more than just people racing out of downtown after work or after a concert.

None of these streets have even been beyond 50% capacity for DECADES (except maybe Cheyenne after a sold-out BOK event), as far as I can tell. So we have streets built for downtown 50 years ago.

I was in Dallas recently at their downtown bar area. The street was packed with cars, and there was a bit of a traffic backup. But the street was a two-lane, two-way street. So it felt alive. Second street felt alive last summer on a Saturday night when it was a little backed up after a PAC event, when only one lane was open due to construction.

Our four-lane one-way speedways will never feel busy. They will never slow people down enough to even take in their surroundings. First Street in front of McNellies will likely be the site of some auto-ped tragedy soon enough. People just come off the IDL driving 40 or 50 mph, barely stopping at the light at Elgin, if they stop at all.
 

Ibanez

Quote from: dsjeffries on May 11, 2009, 12:10:08 PM
Artist, the problem that restaurant faces is not due to visibility or people's perceptions of downtown. Their problem is terrible food. Mr. Rojas has mentioned that the restaurant is only busy on event days. Well, it's likely that a different set of 18,000 BOKC-goers, some out-of-towners, see the restaurant and decide to try it. It only makes sense that this set of people, having received terrible service and worse food, will NOT go back during the week. People will continue to only go there when desperate because it's awful. When other restaurants open in the area, Casa Laredo won't even be busy during peak times.

Other restaurants in downtown don't have this problem, so one has to wonder why this one keeps popping up on the news, declaring again, "Woe is me". Please. Get better food and better staff and people will go there. Until then, shut up about your slow business.

//end vent

Exactly. We have walked there for lunch twice. Terrible food, even worse service.

Never again.

joiei

Quote from: Hometown on May 11, 2009, 01:47:28 PM
Two recent situations come to mind.
 
--We were looking for a retail space in the Brady District.  We found a couple of decent spaces but they did not have ample close by parking.  There was a lot of parking nearby but it was dedicated to other facilities.  We didn't want to count on our potential customers having to hunt for parking and then walking X number of blocks.

--I was considering working at 320 S. Boston but the parking situation was definitely a draw back.  We figured it would cost me at least $75 a month compared to the my current situation where I have free parking.

I have heard the arguments about parking and I respectfully disagree with those that believe current parking is adequate.  A large number of empty lots downtown does not mean that there is a great deal of convenient parking close to the business you might wish to patronize.

Time, convenience and cost are decisive factors when you are deciding where to shop or work or play.


Have you seen the new shopping center over in NW Arkansas that has a fake street like an old fashioned downtown with angled parking on that street and then lots of parking on the back side of all the stores, that is what a downtown used to look like.  If you want to walk from Dillard's, which is a standalone store, to Penny's, which is also a standalone store, it is about a 3 block walk.  It makes one want to stroll along and see what is in the store windows like the old days of vibrant downtowns.   Here is a link - http://pinnaclehillspromenade.com/html/storedirectory.asp.  And the movie theater is not attached to anything either. 

This is rethinking the strip mall, enclosed mall concept.  When I was a kid, we went downtown and parked in a lot or a garage and then walked all over downtown.  It was no big deal.  A two or three block stroll is good exercise. 

If convenience in parking is mandatory then a person will be better off staying the the suburbs where that type of development is the normal.

When I have business downtown I don't look for the closest in parking space to my destination, I just find one and then enjoy the walk.  I might even see something I would of missed.  Like a detail on one of our architectural masterpieces that I had never noticed before.   I understand that that is not for everyone.  And I am fine with that.

I wish we did have more shopping in downtown.  I haven't been to Woodland hills Mall in over 4 years now.  There is nothing there for me.  Personally, I enjoy strolling around Utica Square.  At Centennial Center or whatever it is called I park out on purpose, the exercise is good for me.  But that is just me.  I am just saying.   I do understand priorities of others can be way different than mine and that is no biggie to me.  A person has to be comfortable with their environment. 
It's hard being a Diamond in a rhinestone world.

DowntownNow

And what restaurants anywhere near the BOKCenter would you be talking about that have all this tremendous business on non-event nights?  SoChey's is struggling, and as a result the planned Brickhugger's has been put on the backburner so the owners can make ends meet there. 

Casa Laredo has always had evening hours.  Meanwhile, other restaurant businesses on that side of downtown shut their doors early knowing they cant make it during evening hours.  That includes everything along Main between 3rd and 5th. 

The fact of the matter is that during event nights, yes, you can expect business to be good due to the limited availability and variety of restaurants within close proximity to the BOK, but on any other night, the business simply isnt there.

The Blue Dome and Brady District areas get a little bit better support due to the close proximity of other venues that provide an attractive draw for a variety of things to do and ample nearby parking.  But then again, we're not talking those areas.

carltonplace

Every restaurant and bar in the Blue Dome is regularly packed on weekend nights. This is due to critical mass, and amplified when there is a PAC or Jazz Hall event (not because of the PAC or Jazz Hall). If there were a dearth of eating and drinking places in the CBD then those places would feed off of each other and would see a bump on arena nights.

I hate to say it, but if we could get a big chain or two (Fridays, Chillis, CCF) to build or occupy space in the CBD then we would see an increase in new local places or dinner offerings from the existing local spots because they would provide alternative dining for the crowds coming to the chains that they are familliar with.

Hoss

Quote from: DowntownNow on May 11, 2009, 03:34:50 PM
And what restaurants anywhere near the BOKCenter would you be talking about that have all this tremendous business on non-event nights?  SoChey's is struggling, and as a result the planned Brickhugger's has been put on the backburner so the owners can make ends meet there. 

Casa Laredo has always had evening hours.  Meanwhile, other restaurant businesses on that side of downtown shut their doors early knowing they cant make it during evening hours.  That includes everything along Main between 3rd and 5th. 

The fact of the matter is that during event nights, yes, you can expect business to be good due to the limited availability and variety of restaurants within close proximity to the BOK, but on any other night, the business simply isnt there.

The Blue Dome and Brady District areas get a little bit better support due to the close proximity of other venues that provide an attractive draw for a variety of things to do and ample nearby parking.  But then again, we're not talking those areas.

McNellies for one.  Have you ever tried to get in there on a Wednesday?

RecycleMichael

Quote from: DowntownNow on May 11, 2009, 03:34:50 PM
And what restaurants anywhere near the BOKCenter would you be talking about that have all this tremendous business on non-event nights?  SoChey's is struggling, and as a result the planned Brickhugger's has been put on the backburner so the owners can make ends meet there. 

That is a ridiculous point. There hasn't been a successful restaurant open at night within 5 blocks of the BokCenter for well over a decade, long before the BokCenter was even planned. The only restaurant I can think of that was open at nights and was osmewhat successful was the old Denver Grill. It was the nastiest restaurant in town. The floor always looked like someone had just puked and the bathrooms were detached.

Now...in the last year...downtown restaurants are opening at night. Elote has a good crowd every Wednesday for puffy taco night...Joe Momma's has good crowds most nights, even Baxter's business has dramatically improved. My friends say the Cellar Dwellar is back to good business and the Daily Grill has great business every tme I stop by.  
Power is nothing till you use it.

cannon_fodder

Quote from: DowntownNow on May 11, 2009, 03:34:50 PM
And what restaurants anywhere near the BOKCenter would you be talking about that have all this tremendous business on non-event nights?

I was downtown Tuesday, Friday and Saturday for entertainment: 

Tuesday my family went downtown for the 5x5 sale at the TAC.  It was absolutely packed.  I ducked into Caz's for a bathroom break and at 6pm there were 10-15 people in there (pretty good for a straight up bar at 6pm).  Around 7:30 we headed over to the Blue Dome for some food but there was an insane wait to get a seat (Cinco de Mayo) and the tents that were setup were beer tents (no kids).

On Friday I went to Joe Momma's around 11pm and there was a decent crowd (1/3 full, good for a pizza place at 11pm) and when we left the "bar crowd" was filtering in (so my waitress lamented).  From there we went to Arnies for a beer and had to stand.  We ended up at The Colony in their new outdoor area.

Saturday night we went to the Tallons game (does that count as an event?  I don't think the crowd i saw in the Blue Dome or Brady was the same crowd I saw at the Tallons game.  I really don't think it was the same crowd).  Before the game we ate at Mexicali which was bumpin'.   After the game we went to meet a guy at McNellies and it was packed, stayed for a few beers and went to the Sound Pony, which was crowded and spilling onto the street and into their back lot  (again, I doubt many people at the Sound Pony went to the Tallons game).  We ended up at the Mercury Lounge which was also busy and spilling into the back lot.
- - -

I will not argue that the BOk center spawned any of this or that 7 nights a week they are packed.  But I would argue that the bars in the Blue Dome and Brady District are as busy as other areas (Cherry/Brookside).  The restaurants I frequent in the area seem steady on non-event nights and impossibly busy when something is going on. 

Room for improvement?  Absolutely.    But I think they are feeding off of each other and growing.  And to argue that downtown is not more alive now than it was 5 years ago is simply crazy.
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I crush grooves.

FOTD

Quote from: cannon_fodder on May 11, 2009, 04:48:37 PM


Room for improvement?  Absolutely.    But I think they are feeding DRINKING off of each other and growing.  And to argue that downtown is not more alive now than it was 5 years ago is simply crazy.


Get it right.....

Nic Nac

Elote on Boston between 5th and 6th (old Nelson's Buffeteria) has been busy every night I have eaten there.  All non-event nights.  Great food using lots of organic and local ingredients.  Check it out if you have not done so already.

SXSW

Quote from: joiei on May 11, 2009, 03:07:59 PM
I wish we did have more shopping in downtown.  I haven't been to Woodland hills Mall in over 4 years now.  There is nothing there for me.  Personally, I enjoy strolling around Utica Square.  At Centennial Center or whatever it is called I park out on purpose, the exercise is good for me.  But that is just me.  I am just saying.   I do understand priorities of others can be way different than mine and that is no biggie to me.  A person has to be comfortable with their environment. 

I am exactly the same way, and I would bet there are many more people just like us.  There are also those that want no part of an urban experience and I respect that.  Yet the people Tulsa is trying to attract (and keep) for the most part desire an urban walkable city with retail/restaurants that might not have easy parking if they have parking at all.  Do I think we should have parking downtown?  Of course, until the transit system gets better.  But do we need MORE parking when there is plenty?  I really don't think so, and if anything a lot of those surface lots could be consolidated into garages allowing for more development..