$38 million development being proposed across from BOK Center

[Conan71]

DoubleTree is a Hilton brand.  Pretty sure there is one of those in downtown Tulsa.  But since you are (now) the resident hotel expert you knew that. 

My guess is the negative impression results from the fact that I do not recall you being positive on any proposal, development, or initiative for downtown. 

I vote for a name change to "DowntownNever" with "Kathy Taylor Hater" under that.

[Townsend]

blather meaningless dribble

drivel

[nathanm]

Hotel companies such as Hilton, Marriott and IHG (InterConinential Hotels Group - i.e. Holiday Inn brands) often require project specific market studies in order to identify brand/flag.  It's what helps differentiate between the nine different brands/flags (in Hilton's case) of hotel within their portfolio.  It's what helps determine if a market is supportive of a full-service Hilton, a limited service Hilton Garden Inn or an Embassy Suites.  It is also a tool used to determine if a company even wants to offer a brand to a developer.

You make the hotel companies sound so rational about it. Obviously you don't know that much about the industry. They're about as rational as the big breweries. (Which is to say, not much)

And this is one case where negativity towards the project serves no purpose whatsoever. Save the negativity until there's something to be negative about beyond "it hasn't happened yet, it's never going to happen, woe is us."

[DowntownNow]

Cannon-fodder, yes I knew that, stayed many a night in that hotel years ago, lived next door to it in Central Park for 6 years later.

There have in fact been proposals I have been positive about:  The new crossing gates to reduce train noise, the ONG Building Project by ZigZag and the Hiley Foundation, the Mayor Hotel Development, the Atlas Life Courtyard Marriott (huge proponent of that one), relocation of Casa Laredo to downtown since I know Guillermo Rojas, any development within the Blue Dome District, etc etc.

You say I'm against the ballpark but in fact, I have stated on here before that I am in favor of a philanthropically funded ballpark that could have been built with the $30 million in donations for the stated purpose of local philanthropists wanting to encourage positive growth and redevelopment without creating a burden on downtown property owners.

You say I think the downtown tax for the stadium is bad and you are right, I do believe it is a very bad idea, a position that seemed to have gained favor in this forum when more information was presented.  Also a position that the County and State have taken up as well as other downtown property owners that oppose this financial burden and are pursuing it in court, at what future cost to all Tulsa taxpayers?

Never said BOKCenter will fail.  I have suggested it was located in the wrong spot that did not easily allow immediate and further development and growth, that also happens to be a position Mayor Kathy Taylor took up when she pitched the ballpark idea and location - the need not to repeat the past mistakes that were made known from the construction of the BOKCenter in its present location.  I have also said that the BOKCenter will never make money, but that was the point if to only encourage further economic growth and redevelopment in the downtown area which it has not done on its own accord.

Never said a new hotel is bad.  As stated above, I fully support the addition of the Atlas Life Marriott and would look forward to a hotel in the vicinity of the arena as well as perhaps one or two more in the downtown area to support the expected convention business once the Convention Center improvements are complete.  I supported the Hawthorne Suites development proposal for the 3rd & Denver site, and to some degree Howard Raskin's proposed mixed-use development, though I did question the high-end hotel branding he was suggesting.  

As for lofts and their price ranges, I have made comments that there is a huge pipeline of high-end residential units either currently under construction or in the pipeline (that include the First Street Lofts, Micha Alexander's development, Mayo Hotel lofts, Mayo Building Lofts and Tribune II) and that there is no consideration being given to low and mid level price ranges.  A recent survey conducted using participants at a Young Porfessionals of Tulsa gathering at the Crowne Plaze a couple months agao also highlighted this fact and a stated need for more affordable housing to attract a younger set of residents to the downtown area.  

I never said Tribune II was a bad project, I did however question the manner in which it is being financed utilizing $4 million dollars of taxpayer funds in an interest free loan for 10 years from TDA and that there was no public offering or Request For Proposal for these funds.  My question had more to do with the fairness issue to other developers that could have benefitted from some monies and its use to incentivize additional projects instead of just one.  I, however, never said the project was a bad one.  

I, like others, did question the Mayor's use of the BOKCenter for her daughters wedding..without a signed contract or deposit in place like any other individual would have been required to do.  The BOKCenter is a publicly funded, taxpayer owned facility...not someone of influences personal playground.  Every person, organization, sport, band, etc should be treated the same and not left to give the impression of impropriety.  At the very least, I questioned the scheduling of a non-contracted event that effected another.

I dont think I have ever said that moving City hall was a bad idea.  I do question the logic in such a move when it was to have reduced expenditures by moving all City affiliated offices into the building yet not all offices have been moved and the City continues to pay for, maintain and hold off the market other potential properties for redevelopment to promote ad valorem and sales tax revenues.  

I never said the KOTV building wont happen.  I pointed out that with the economy and advertising the way it is, the recent layoffs of staff and consolidation of operations of both its OKC and Tulsa divisions, how would it effect the start of construction.  I also pointed out that recently it was said they are re-bidding construction contract in the hopes of realizing a $3 million savings from original bids.  I did question why it has not started, why the TDA continues to allow it to sit without a start of construction as is detailed in their TDA contract for the land purchase and why TDA is not moving to cancel the contract to comply with the contract.

HUD funding problems - sorry to break it to you, but that was a doozy.  TDA allowed the City to misappropriate $1.5 million in CDBG funds.  As a result, the City (though it was the TDA) was forced to pay back the $1.5 million...that could have just as easily been every taxpayers responsibility if TDA had the gumption to refuse and make the City pay since they misallocated.  As the recently released TW article stated, those funding problems have now put a total of $4.5 million in CDBG funding from 2007 & 2008 programs in jeopardy because of the City's failure to create a plan and allocate the funds to already approved projects.  So yes, I have a fundamental concern about that issue.  It could now cost us the opportunity to further encourage other economic and redevelopment efforts.

The mayor sucks...yes, in my personal opinion she does.  We each have our own opinion on that and there's mine.  

The roads are horrible.  Is there anyone in here that doesnt think the roads are horrible...wow, am I the only one?  Amazing...I just happend to call attention to issues concerning the packages for repair and provide a specific example to support my stance.  If you think Tulsa roads are in good shape...well you must not drive.  

And as for the latest proposal...never said it wont happen.  I never said it was a scam, I did though question the development LLC's original existence since it was mis-reported and there was no record of it on the Sec of State website.  

Im not here to satisfy people's feelings about me or appease their sense of what is worthy of support or not, each person makes that choice for themselves based on the information presented.  If this were a forum to do nothing but post an upcoming project, and this organization feels that project should be supported no matter what, then why have a forum at all?  Just create a web page that lists positive articles, upcoming projects and leave it at that I suppose...with the occasional "you must support this" banner.

I am here to debate topics, support projects where I see merit, and attempt to shed light on questionable events, practices and processes that might get some to think and comment about them so that they arent doomed to be repeated, all in the hope of making a difference if on some small way by utilizing this forum.  The great thing about good, honest and meaningful developments, groups, events, etc is that they dont need morale boosters.  It is typically the ones we find fault in that require examination and skepticism until we either rpove or believe that they are in the best interest of the public they are deemed to serve.

Regarding perception, Rachel Carson once wrote:

"If facts are the seeds that later produce knowledge and wisdom, then the emotions and the impressions of the senses are the fertile soil in which the seeds must grow."

[Conan71]

Bloviating again...

[DowntownNow]

And nathanm, your background or experience in hotels is what?  

I had the opportunity to meet a gentleman by the name of Tye Turman at the Atlas Life announcement.  He provided some terrific insight in addition to what I have gathered in my years working in the marketing field, talking to other hotel developers and managers...and also likely because he is the Area Vice President of Lodging Development at Marriott International.

Since you have offered nothing concrete to contradict my hotel industry statements, I'll leave it at that...but like Michael, 'E' for effort.

[rwarn17588]

drivel

His drivel is causing his credibility to dribble away.

[rwarn17588]

Im not here to satisfy people's feelings about me or appease their sense of what is worthy of support or not, blah blah blah for 1,500 words

That's readily apparent.

But there's a point where you go from being a constructive critic to an obnoxious crank like guido or FOTD. And you're dangerously close to being the latter, if you aren't there already.

[nathanm]

And nathanm, your background or experience in hotels is what?  

I had the opportunity to meet a gentleman by the name of Tye Turman at the Atlas Life announcement.  He provided some terrific insight in addition to what I have gathered in my years working in the marketing field, talking to other hotel developers and managers...and also likely because he is the Area Vice President of Lodging Development at Marriott International.

Since you have offered nothing concrete to contradict my hotel industry statements, I'll leave it at that...but like Michael, 'E' for effort.

You think I actually care if you believe me? If you want to think that the franchisers act rationally, you're more than welcome to continue engaging in such magical thinking. The ease of getting a particular brand depends more on the developer's/manager's relationship with the company (more to the point, certain people at the company) than any concrete requirements.

This is how you have Days Inns turn into Doubletrees or Hiltons and properties linger with a brand for 10 years past when they should have been dropped.

[Oil Capital]

Not completely approved. They have agreed to a 21 day negotiating period.

Sometimes things go bad with TDA. I don't expect this one to, but history says otherwise.

Please TDA...negotiate in good faith.

Anyone know what, if anything, is going on with this?  According to RM's post from May 7, they agreed to a 21-day negotiating period.  That, of course would have expired roughly 1 1/2 months ago.  Did this project just quietly die?

[Double A]

Cannon-fodder, yes I knew that, stayed many a night in that hotel years ago, lived next door to it in Central Park for 6 years later.

There have in fact been proposals I have been positive about:  The new crossing gates to reduce train noise, the ONG Building Project by ZigZag and the Hiley Foundation, the Mayor Hotel Development, the Atlas Life Courtyard Marriott (huge proponent of that one), relocation of Casa Laredo to downtown since I know Guillermo Rojas, any development within the Blue Dome District, etc etc.

You say I'm against the ballpark but in fact, I have stated on here before that I am in favor of a philanthropically funded ballpark that could have been built with the $30 million in donations for the stated purpose of local philanthropists wanting to encourage positive growth and redevelopment without creating a burden on downtown property owners.

You say I think the downtown tax for the stadium is bad and you are right, I do believe it is a very bad idea, a position that seemed to have gained favor in this forum when more information was presented.  Also a position that the County and State have taken up as well as other downtown property owners that oppose this financial burden and are pursuing it in court, at what future cost to all Tulsa taxpayers?

Never said BOKCenter will fail.  I have suggested it was located in the wrong spot that did not easily allow immediate and further development and growth, that also happens to be a position Mayor Kathy Taylor took up when she pitched the ballpark idea and location - the need not to repeat the past mistakes that were made known from the construction of the BOKCenter in its present location.  I have also said that the BOKCenter will never make money, but that was the point if to only encourage further economic growth and redevelopment in the downtown area which it has not done on its own accord.

Never said a new hotel is bad.  As stated above, I fully support the addition of the Atlas Life Marriott and would look forward to a hotel in the vicinity of the arena as well as perhaps one or two more in the downtown area to support the expected convention business once the Convention Center improvements are complete.  I supported the Hawthorne Suites development proposal for the 3rd & Denver site, and to some degree Howard Raskin's proposed mixed-use development, though I did question the high-end hotel branding he was suggesting.  

As for lofts and their price ranges, I have made comments that there is a huge pipeline of high-end residential units either currently under construction or in the pipeline (that include the First Street Lofts, Micha Alexander's development, Mayo Hotel lofts, Mayo Building Lofts and Tribune II) and that there is no consideration being given to low and mid level price ranges.  A recent survey conducted using participants at a Young Porfessionals of Tulsa gathering at the Crowne Plaze a couple months agao also highlighted this fact and a stated need for more affordable housing to attract a younger set of residents to the downtown area.  

I never said Tribune II was a bad project, I did however question the manner in which it is being financed utilizing $4 million dollars of taxpayer funds in an interest free loan for 10 years from TDA and that there was no public offering or Request For Proposal for these funds.  My question had more to do with the fairness issue to other developers that could have benefitted from some monies and its use to incentivize additional projects instead of just one.  I, however, never said the project was a bad one.  

I, like others, did question the Mayor's use of the BOKCenter for her daughters wedding..without a signed contract or deposit in place like any other individual would have been required to do.  The BOKCenter is a publicly funded, taxpayer owned facility...not someone of influences personal playground.  Every person, organization, sport, band, etc should be treated the same and not left to give the impression of impropriety.  At the very least, I questioned the scheduling of a non-contracted event that effected another.

I dont think I have ever said that moving City hall was a bad idea.  I do question the logic in such a move when it was to have reduced expenditures by moving all City affiliated offices into the building yet not all offices have been moved and the City continues to pay for, maintain and hold off the market other potential properties for redevelopment to promote ad valorem and sales tax revenues.  

I never said the KOTV building wont happen.  I pointed out that with the economy and advertising the way it is, the recent layoffs of staff and consolidation of operations of both its OKC and Tulsa divisions, how would it effect the start of construction.  I also pointed out that recently it was said they are re-bidding construction contract in the hopes of realizing a $3 million savings from original bids.  I did question why it has not started, why the TDA continues to allow it to sit without a start of construction as is detailed in their TDA contract for the land purchase and why TDA is not moving to cancel the contract to comply with the contract.

HUD funding problems - sorry to break it to you, but that was a doozy.  TDA allowed the City to misappropriate $1.5 million in CDBG funds.  As a result, the City (though it was the TDA) was forced to pay back the $1.5 million...that could have just as easily been every taxpayers responsibility if TDA had the gumption to refuse and make the City pay since they misallocated.  As the recently released TW article stated, those funding problems have now put a total of $4.5 million in CDBG funding from 2007 & 2008 programs in jeopardy because of the City's failure to create a plan and allocate the funds to already approved projects.  So yes, I have a fundamental concern about that issue.  It could now cost us the opportunity to further encourage other economic and redevelopment efforts.

The mayor sucks...yes, in my personal opinion she does.  We each have our own opinion on that and there's mine.  

The roads are horrible.  Is there anyone in here that doesnt think the roads are horrible...wow, am I the only one?  Amazing...I just happend to call attention to issues concerning the packages for repair and provide a specific example to support my stance.  If you think Tulsa roads are in good shape...well you must not drive.  

And as for the latest proposal...never said it wont happen.  I never said it was a scam, I did though question the development LLC's original existence since it was mis-reported and there was no record of it on the Sec of State website.  

Im not here to satisfy people's feelings about me or appease their sense of what is worthy of support or not, each person makes that choice for themselves based on the information presented.  If this were a forum to do nothing but post an upcoming project, and this organization feels that project should be supported no matter what, then why have a forum at all?  Just create a web page that lists positive articles, upcoming projects and leave it at that I suppose...with the occasional "you must support this" banner.

I am here to debate topics, support projects where I see merit, and attempt to shed light on questionable events, practices and processes that might get some to think and comment about them so that they arent doomed to be repeated, all in the hope of making a difference if on some small way by utilizing this forum.  The great thing about good, honest and meaningful developments, groups, events, etc is that they dont need morale boosters.  It is typically the ones we find fault in that require examination and skepticism until we either rpove or believe that they are in the best interest of the public they are deemed to serve.

Regarding perception, Rachel Carson once wrote:

"If facts are the seeds that later produce knowledge and wisdom, then the emotions and the impressions of the senses are the fertile soil in which the seeds must grow."

Well said.

You are right to question whether the ends justify the means and to point it out when they so clearly don't. Questioning the process does not equate to codemning a project. The wisdom of an honest "naysayer" like yourself is music to my ears, compared to the chants of the cerebrally impaired cheerleaders on the B.S. bandwagon. 

Too bad your keystrokes are wasted on most of these brainwashed kool aid drinkers. 

[PonderInc]

I drink iced tea from QT (enjoying the 49 cent special even as we speak).  Also Warsteiner Dunkels at McNellies, Marshalls at Joe Mommas, and Negra Modelos & Diet Coke with Splenda at home.

I would have read DTN's post, but I was busy with Tolstoy's "War and Peace."  (I picked the shorter of the two...) 

[Gaspar]

Anyone know what, if anything, is going on with this?  According to RM's post from May 7, they agreed to a 21-day negotiating period.  That, of course would have expired roughly 1 1/2 months ago.  Did this project just quietly die?

Directly under that property running South to North is a huge PSO feeder line.  The developer will need to build a tunnel (or move the line).  This makes underground parking difficult, or at least dissects it into two separate small underground lots.  Each time this is discovered by a new "group" and the engineering cost calculated it may sour the deal or makes investors squeamish.  The existence of this line sucks a lot of profit out of the model.

[FOTD]

Directly under that property running South to North is a huge PSO feeder line.  The developer will need to build a tunnel (or move the line).  This makes underground parking difficult, or at least dissects it into two separate small underground lots.  Each time this is discovered by a new "group" and the engineering cost calculated it may sour the deal or makes investors squeamish.  The existence of this line sucks a lot of profit out of the model.

PSO should pay to move it with all that additional revenue they get from downtown.

Changing the subject, rumor has it all the Bill White land transfered to an OKC investor who plans to retrofit the existing property.....

[Oil Capital]

Directly under that property running South to North is a huge PSO feeder line.  The developer will need to build a tunnel (or move the line).  This makes underground parking difficult, or at least dissects it into two separate small underground lots.  Each time this is discovered by a new "group" and the engineering cost calculated it may sour the deal or makes investors squeamish.  The existence of this line sucks a lot of profit out of the model.

And they are not putting that information on the very first disclosure/rfp/plat/survey shared with potential purchasers/developers?   

I suppose they run under what used to be the alley?  I have to say I am pretty skeptical of that story.  Do you have a source?   Why would a huge electrical feeder line run through the middle of that block?  Where does it come from and go from there?  Under the bus station and under the BOK drive-through?  That would be odd, to say the least.