Jesse Ventura's take on torture

[guido911]

Mancow faked the waterboarding:

http://gawker.com/5272691/confirmed-mancows-waterboarding-was-completely-fake

[Cats Cats Cats]

Mancow faked the waterboarding:

http://gawker.com/5272691/confirmed-mancows-waterboarding-was-completely-fake

"If I wanted to fake it, it would have lasted for six minutes—I lasted six seconds."

"UPDATE: Mancow called us back to say that even though his waterboarder didn't know what he was doing, and his publicist called the whole thing a "hoax," it wasn't supposed to be a REALLY real waterboarding to begin with. Just the radio stunt kind! "Of course I wasn't a radical terrorist," he said. "Of course it was simulated. To compare what I went through to what Khalid Sheikh Mohammed went through—of course it was not the same. I'm sure it was worse for them."

Undoubtedly it was. But isn't the whole point of these exercises to let people know exactly what we talk about when we talk about waterboarding? We've learned that Mancow can't take six seconds of having water poured on his face—we guess he doesn't take showers?"

Its too bad conservatives won't man up to absolutely NOT be tortured to get donations for the troops.

[mr.jaynes]

Huh?

Mancow was testing to see whether the method was torture, based on his observations. His conclusion was an emphatic "yes."

Mancow- now there's a expert! Kind of strikes me as a cross between a failed Howard Stern wannabe and a caricature of Sean Hannity/Rush Limbaugh (who seem like caricatures of themselves on occasion).

I never figured him out: I'd see him on Fox and Friends on occasion to sound off on this and that, and I can't quite get his schtick:  it's "am I a Radio Shock Jock (gee, he must not be a household name if I don't see or hear much from him beyond Fox News)? Am I a conservative pundit (could not hold a candle to William F. Buckley)? Am I a stand-up comic with a lame act (Adam Sandler seems cerebral in comparison)? Am I a relative nobody who wants to be somebody (like Kato Kaelin or Divine Brown)? Do I have something concrete to add to the discourse here (like say, William Kristol), or am I just copping an attitude (like Laura Ingraham)?" And it's hard for me to take him seriously.

[USRufnex]

Mancow faked the waterboarding:

http://gawker.com/5272691/confirmed-mancows-waterboarding-was-completely-fake

What reason would he have to fake it and then say it's torture?  Was he planning to pretend he was having water poured on him, then change his mind on waterboarding, then tell everybody it was a radio stunt just so he could meet Keith Olbermann?  What does he gain?  And how would he avoid having his Man Card taken away for being a total wimp?



Mancow in the Morning is one of those largely innocuous radio shows with a guy who likes to revel in his male chauvinistic pig-ness.... that's always been his schtick.

So, Mancow changed his mind on waterboarding?.... I think I need a second opinion....

Can someone waterboard Danny Bonaduce for me?

[guido911]

I wonder what Ventura's take on getting his donkey knocked down is?

[jacobi]

So, as a relatively new member of TNF I didn't know this thread existed until just now.  After having looked it over I have determined a few things.

1) no one seems to have done a comparative study of war law model vs criminal law model
2) Guido is such a damned utilitarian I could not trust him to represent me for anything.  Lawyers are not consequetialists, guido.  They adhear to the law.
3) No one has said the important thing: saying we tortured bad guys PRESUMES THEIR GUILT!!!!  or is that ok because jack bauer does it and TV is like real cool man...?
4) How should we have gone about finding the people responsable for 9/11 or the OKC bombing?  "there is a wierd arab guy here who is real weird"" (that happened) or Their is a wierd skinheaded white guy trying to rent a ryder van who is real wierd"  Up to the bicept cavity searches?  Beatings? maybe a castration?maybe cut out one of their eyes?  Maybe gang rape their grandmothers to death (and even then not stop) in front of them?  Once you make results all that is really important, you have kissed a real system of ethics goodby.

Anywho,  what an awful night.  I'm going to take a half a botle of niquile and hope to wake up in the morning.

[YoungTulsan]

Ventura's point, which he specifically stated during that Larry King interview, was that waterboarding and torture doesn't work because people will say anything to make the torture stop.

If you are being tortured, you will say what you think they want to hear in order to make them stop.  Hence, his claim he could make Cheney confess to some murder he obviously had nothing to do with.

Guido, do you presume to know the opinions of 9/11 or Murrah building victims?

Dispute this post.   What on earth justifies torture?  How are we not above the fray?   How is Guido's (in 2009) posting pictures of 9/11 victims jumping to their deaths a justification of a tactic which should be reserved for barbarians, not the limited governance of a free society.

[guido911]

So, as a relatively new member of TNF I didn't know this thread existed until just now.  After having looked it over I have determined a few things.

1) no one seems to have done a comparative study of war law model vs criminal law model
2) Guido is such a damned utilitarian I could not trust him to represent me for anything.  Lawyers are not consequetialists, guido.  They adhear to the law.
3) No one has said the important thing: saying we tortured bad guys PRESUMES THEIR GUILT!!!!  or is that ok because jack bauer does it and TV is like real cool man...?
4) How should we have gone about finding the people responsable for 9/11 or the OKC bombing?  "there is a wierd arab guy here who is real weird"" (that happened) or Their is a wierd skinheaded white guy trying to rent a ryder van who is real wierd"  Up to the bicept cavity searches?  Beatings? maybe a castration?maybe cut out one of their eyes?  Maybe gang rape their grandmothers to death (and even then not stop) in front of them?  Once you make results all that is really important, you have kissed a real system of ethics goodby.

Anywho,  what an awful night.  I'm going to take a half a botle of niquile and hope to wake up in the morning.

Sheesh, spell check problem or PWI? And whoever said I would represent you anyway? I help real people with real problems and have little time for stupid Bentham Mill nonsense.

As for water boarding being torture, I have already been clear that in my opinion it is not torture and those in high places have said it resulted in reliable intel. Good enough for me, but not so good for KSM fans. But good to know Jacobi and others are judges and juries and can by fiat or their own awesomeness declare it unlawful or torture.

[Breadburner]

OBL did not approve of water-boarding......

[Conan71]

OBL did not approve of water-boarding......

You mean ol' Double-Tap Osama?

[patric]

4) How should we have gone about finding the people responsable for 9/11 or the OKC bombing? 

The Feds didnt get anything from McVeigh by torture, and his capture was just dumb luck by an OHP trooper on a fishing expedition.

Kenneth Trentadue (the man mistaken for John Doe 2) however, was tortured,
to death. 
What did anyone benefit from that?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Michael_Trentadue

[Conan71]

[Gaspar]

Hey, I'm glad we don't torture any more.  We've killed over a hundred suspected terrorists and anyone they happened to be standing by or sharing a cab with since President Obama took office.  More than we were ever able to rendition and interrogate!

Torture for information was inefficient, and wrong!  The new program requires no warning, no Miranda, no fingerprints, no rendition, and an acceptable amount of collateral damage. We deal swift death from above with a drone's targeted missiles.  So silent that the terrorists don't even know their dead until they hear the nagging whines of 72 virgins (also known as the Devil's pitch-fork).  

[AquaMan]

That's a lot of suicides by hanging over there in OKC. Must be one dismal place.

[patric]

The most successful interrogation of an Al-Qaeda operative by U.S. officials required no sleep deprivation, no slapping or "walling" and no waterboarding. All it took to soften up Abu Jandal, who had been closer to Osama bin Laden than any other terrorist ever captured, was a handful of sugar-free cookies.

Abu Jandal had been in a Yemeni prison for nearly a year when Ali Soufan of the FBI and Robert McFadden of the Naval Criminal Investigative Service arrived to interrogate him in the week after 9/11. Although there was already evidence that al-Qaeda was behind the attacks, American authorities needed conclusive proof, not least to satisfy skeptics like Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf, whose support was essential for any action against the terrorist organization.

Abu Jandal's guards were so intimidated by him, they wore masks to hide their identities and begged visitors not to refer to them by name in his presence. He had no intention of cooperating with the Americans; at their first meetings, he refused even to look at them and ranted about the evils of the West. Far from confirming al-Qaeda's involvement in 9/11, he insisted the attacks had been orchestrated by Israel's Mossad. While Abu Jandal was venting his spleen, Soufan noticed that he didn't touch any of the cookies that had been served with tea: "He was a diabetic and couldn't eat anything with sugar in it." At their next meeting, the Americans brought him some sugar-free cookies, a gesture that took the edge off Abu Jandal's angry demeanor. "We had showed him respect, and we had done this nice thing for him," Soufan recalls. "So he started talking to us instead of giving us lectures."

It took more questioning, and some interrogators' sleight of hand, before the Yemeni gave up a wealth of information about al-Qaeda — including the identities of seven of the 9/11 bombers — but the cookies were the turning point. "After that, he could no longer think of us as evil Americans," Soufan says. "Now he was thinking of us as human beings."

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1901491,00.html



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