Home Bible Study Banned....

[Wilbur]

There are 11 addresses on my block. Being generous, two cars could park in front of them (22 total spots).  Currently, 7 of us park on the street (teenagers, second cars etc). That leaves 14 spots from full capacity. We share those spots with visiting company, a nearby grade school and real (non profit) get togethers you described.

Depending on where you live, you also share those parking spots with 390,000 other Tulsans.

There is no law that says curb parking in front of your house belongs exclusively to you.

City streets belong to everyone, not just you.

[waterboy]

That's certainly true but dodges the issue of a tax exempt church using our tax paid streets as a parking lot for their church.

We used to have a nearby denturist who used our parking for his employees so that the parking in front of his facility could be saved for his customers. So all day long we provided his company parking. Here's how we dealt with that. We asked that he not tie up all of our street for his personal gain and he responded similarly to what you did. So, we parked our cars in front of his business as often as possible and as long as possible. Our sprinkler systems came on as he and his employees got off work. We mowed our lawns so that dust and grass were thrown onto his cars. Often times their little pickup trucks would serve as trash cans for the neighborhood. Finally, someone asked the city to place no parking signs with time limitations so at least the parents could pick up their children without dealing with his defacto parking lot.

It worked. His arrogance and self interest were rewarded with inconvenience. He was forced to deal with the lack of parking for his business and moved out.

[nathanm]

There is no law that says curb parking in front of your house belongs exclusively to you.

As a shared resource, it's quite rude to monopolize. That said, I don't have a driveway to park in, so maybe I'm biased.

[jiminy]

That's certainly true but dodges the issue of a tax exempt church using our tax paid streets as a parking lot for their church.

Churches don't park anywhere.  People do.  Those people pay their taxes, so can park on "your" tax paid street.  I live near LaFortune, but you don't hear me bitching because people park in front of my house and go watch their kids play ball.  It's just part of city life.  Don't like it move to the country.

[Red Arrow]

He was forced to deal with the lack of parking for his business and moved out.

But wait...  I thought big parking lots were a really bad thing. Trendy places are supposed to have insufficient parking. It's the wave of the future.  This forum has had entire threads on parking lots that are too big. 

[waterboy]

Churches don't park anywhere.  People do.  Those people pay their taxes, so can park on "your" tax paid street.  I live near LaFortune, but you don't hear me bitching because people park in front of my house and go watch their kids play ball.  It's just part of city life.  Don't like it move to the country.

That's weak spin. The church invited people to his home to worship. Even if they walked to his home he is abusing zoning laws and trying to pass it off as religious intolerance. Your argument is analagous to the denturist saying his employees decided on their own to park on city streets. People have parked in front of my home to pick up their children daily for the last 30 years without incident and I've lived in the city my whole life so don't preach your "tolerance" to me. Its the abuse of the privilege we're talking about here.

[Cats Cats Cats]

If they weren't blocking the street there should be no problem.  Basically he has an a**hole neighbor that complained so they have to enforce whatever rules the city has.  If nobody called them in the city would have nothing to do with it.  Can we move on?

[cannon_fodder]

So how many members does it take before it is too many to be run out of a house?

Clearly many think 15-20 is too low.  25?  30?  Can I run a church out of my house that has 50 members in regular attendance? 

Lets clarify the issue:  Is the disagreement with this ordinance that it exists at all or that the number is too low?  Also, if they were restricting the regular gathering for some other purpose - would you care?


Also on point, it is distinguishable from a family gathering or a Tupperware party.  There is no zoning for "family gatherings," you can not violate city ordinances by having too many family members over for dinner (though, if you did so weekly and neighbors complained some sort of complaint could be lodged).  There are, however, zoning restrictions for churches, homeless shelters, food banks, schools, day cares, art galleries/workshops, gardens, garage sales, car sales, other small businesses, etc.   All things that people can (and do) operate out of their homes.  But when they get to a certain size they are in violation of ordinances. 

If someone had a poker night that drew an average of 15 people if would be in violation of city ordinances (as well as Federal and State law).  Tupperware parties are commercial endeavors and are restricted in their scale and frequency.  Garage sales are restricted in their frequency (as are home car sales).  If you had Monday night football parties at your house every Monday night with 15 people in attendance and a neighbor complained, you would probably get a visit from the city (call it a noise or disturbance complaint).

I understand the nature of the complaint, but religious groups are not entitled to any special treatment.  Apparently in San Diego groups of 15+ or more assembled for religious purposes require a permit in the area this meetings are taking place.  Find a church basement, a community park, or other meeting places.

- - -

Finally, in our fair and pious city of Tulsa, a residential zoning does not bring with it the right to use your property for  "community services or similar usage."  You must apply for a special exception.  And a "place of worship" is a separate facility from a home. 

Place of Worship: A facility or facilities used by persons to regularly assemble, attend,
observe, participate in or hold religious services, meetings, rituals, and other related
activities in reverence or veneration to a supernatural power, including but not limited
to a church, chapel, mosque, synagogue, temple and similar facilities.

Definitions.  Title 42 of the Tulsa City Ordinances.  (Tulsa ordinances can be found here: http://www.cityoftulsa.org/our-city/ordinances.aspx.  True citations are cumbersome and not very helpful since you can not look up by citation. You can, however, search inside the document.)

The situation at hand seems to fit this description.  A group of 15 people regularly meet to venerate and study a supernatural power.  Thus, it is a place of worship.

A "place of worship" is permitted (and encouraged) in a residential neighborhood.   But they have to meet certain permitting criteria (occupancy, safety, parking).  A "place of worship" and a "dwelling unit" are different places by definition and have different zoning requirements.   Like a school, college, day care, or a museum (a whole list of things), at a certain point they can no longer operate out of a residential setting without a special exception.  By the above definition, a regular meeting of 15 people would qualify.

To be classified as a Place of Worship legally there are several specific restrictions (in addition to commercial safety/parking/fire code requirements) including:

1. Places of Worship when located within an AG or R District [agricultural or residential]:
a. Minimum lot area of one acre and minimum lot width of lOO feet.
b. No parking shall be permitted within a required front yard.

You also need parking specific to a place of worship of 1 parking spot per 3 seats.  Since 15 is average, we shall assume more often attend.  But we know a minimum of 5 off street parking spots is required (assuming they have a 1 acre lot and meet the other safety/fire issues).

So need to complain about this happening in San Diego, the zoning here in Tulsa would allow a neighbor to complain about the improper use of a residential dwelling unit in much the same way.
- - -

And finally, would I complain about it?  No.  I don't think I would.  But would it surprise me if some neighbor did complain about a gathering of 15+ people on a weekly basis for any purpose?  No.  I would expect someone to get annoyed at it fairly quickly.

[Conan71]

This deal in San Diego seems pretty weak trying to call this a church gathering if it's only 10 to 15 people showing up every week.  Even if people are chipping in a few dollars to help defray the cost of food, I don't see how the county could call it a "church".  If 200 people were coming every week, I'd be more skeptical of it being claimed as a Bible study.

Where I draw the line is when there's a blatant commercial enterprise going on in a residential area.  If it's truly a Bible study, San Diego is over-reaching.  I agree with Waterboy that if there's a business in the midst of a residential area, like he described, they need to be good neighbors or get a space somewhere with more parking that does not create problems for neighbors.

Anyone else notice on Yale between 21st & 31st there's two houses along the west side of the street that have a "big sale" every weekend?  I seriously doubt these people have proper permits to do this.  If they want to be in the retail business, they need to lease some space in one of the shopping centers to the north or south of the area.  I also get real irritated with neighbors who use the street to store un-used cars.  My understanding is, so long as the tag is up to date and all tires are aired up, there's nothing to keep someone from parking a derelict car on a street for 10 years.

[bbriscoe]

"Clearly many think 15-20 is too low.  25?  30?  Can I run a church out of my house that has 50 members in regular attendance?  "

I think this should be determined by the Fire Marshall.  And no fire marshall has ever set a limit of less than 15 people allowed in a home - most elevator cars will supposedly hold close to 15 people.

This smacks of infringment on the "right to peacably assemble".  Zoning laws that go too far or are enforced selectively could be very well be stricken down by the high courts.  I'm assuming that this guy lives in the home and pays property taxes.  If so, he should be allowed to do pretty much anything that is otherwise legal, safe, and does not create an unreasonable nusiance -not as the primary function of the property, but at least for 1 or 2 hours per week.  If these people were walking to the meetings (which some above poster still had a problem with) or not creating undue parking issues then there shouldn't be any valid issues here.  Its not like he is slaughtering chickens, manufacturing dangerous substances, or even running a for-profit 9 to 5 weekday business out of the home.

Now if he just bought a house in the middle of a neighborhood and decided to use it solely as a church building, not even living in it, I could see the legal zoning issues there, especially if the home was owned by the church and therefore exempt from property taxes.

But in most areas it wouldn't be that hard to get a variance.  Most of the churches in Tulsa (except for the megachurches) are right in the middle of neighborhoods and right next door to single family homes on every side.  Street overflow parking is common and tolerated for a few hours every week. Sometimes nearby homes are purchased by the church for parsonages or classroom space and Tulsa County has never had a problem with this.

[custosnox]

That's weak spin. The church invited people to his home to worship. Even if they walked to his home he is abusing zoning laws and trying to pass it off as religious intolerance. Your argument is analagous to the denturist saying his employees decided on their own to park on city streets. People have parked in front of my home to pick up their children daily for the last 30 years without incident and I've lived in the city my whole life so don't preach your "tolerance" to me. Its the abuse of the privilege we're talking about here.

Everything you have posted so far looks to me that you area assuming that this pastor does not have a church and uses his house as a defecto worshiping hall.  Everything I have seen, according to the pastor, this is a gathering to learn more on their gathering and have a meal together with some of those that tend his church.  Which makes this no differant then the guys from work gathering every saturday night for poker, or sunday for football.

[carltonplace]

This deal in San Diego seems pretty weak trying to call this a church gathering if it's only 10 to 15 people showing up every week.  Even if people are chipping in a few dollars to help defray the cost of food, I don't see how the county could call it a "church".  If 200 people were coming every week, I'd be more skeptical of it being claimed as a Bible study.

Where I draw the line is when there's a blatant commercial enterprise going on in a residential area.  If it's truly a Bible study, San Diego is over-reaching.  I agree with Waterboy that if there's a business in the midst of a residential area, like he described, they need to be good neighbors or get a space somewhere with more parking that does not create problems for neighbors.

Anyone else notice on Yale between 21st & 31st there's two houses along the west side of the street that have a "big sale" every weekend?  I seriously doubt these people have proper permits to do this.  If they want to be in the retail business, they need to lease some space in one of the shopping centers to the north or south of the area.  I also get real irritated with neighbors who use the street to store un-used cars.  My understanding is, so long as the tag is up to date and all tires are aired up, there's nothing to keep someone from parking a derelict car on a street for 10 years.

We have a perenial garage sale in my neighborhood as well with signs touting: New Stuff every week!
That is a retail business and as such should have a special exemption for use in a zoned residential area and should remit sales taxes to the appropriate entities.

[bbriscoe]

We have a perenial garage sale in my neighborhood as well with signs touting: New Stuff every week!
That is a retail business and as such should have a special exemption for use in a zoned residential area and should remit sales taxes to the appropriate entities.

Sales taxes generally aren't charged twice on the same item - only once when it was originally "consumed" by the initial end purchaser.  Used items aren't taxed again unless additional value has been added.  Now if they are selling new items they bought tax exempt for resale, then sales tax should be charged.  They should also pay income tax on their profits if they are selling used or new items for more than they bought them for - but that is an IRS issue, not a local or zoning issue.

[Conan71]

Sales taxes generally aren't charged twice on the same item - only once when it was originally "consumed" by the initial end purchaser.  Used items aren't taxed again unless additional value has been added.  Now if they are selling new items they bought tax exempt for resale, then sales tax should be charged.  They should also pay income tax on their profits if they are selling used or new items for more than they bought them for - but that is an IRS issue, not a local or zoning issue.

I don't think consignment and re-sale shops are tax-exempt.  You'll pay sales tax if you buy antiques from an antique store in Oklahoma if they are operating legally.

[Red Arrow]

Sales taxes generally aren't charged twice on the same item - only once when it was originally "consumed" by the initial end purchaser.  Used items aren't taxed again unless additional value has been added. 

The state changes the title to "Use Tax" when bringing in used autos and airplanes (don't know about boats, RVs or others) into the state.  It equals the state sales tax.  Oklahoma is not alone in charging sales tax on large ticket used items.