Domestic Right Wing Terrorists!

[Hoss]

There is some debate he lowered his hands because he had just been shot.  Others say he is sturggling to gain his balance in deep snow after just being in a collision with a large snow bank.
The video shows one cop maneuvered himself directly in the path of the truck as it approached the roadblock, which would happen if the officer was firing or about to fire.

An "enhanced" version of the video circulating online appeared to show Finicum being shot before he lowered his arms, many argued. They criticized the FBI for releasing such grainy video, and for failing to release audio.
http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/01/oregon_standoff_video_of_lavoy.html



As four armed anti-government protesters held their ground at a U.S. wildlife refuge in Oregon on Friday, the family of a protester killed by police said he seemed to have been shot in the back with his hands up, although authorities said he was reaching for a gun.

"LaVoy was not 'charging' anyone. He appears to have been shot in the back, with his hands in the air," the family of the Arizona rancher said in a statement through their attorney.

The grainy footage shows Finicum raising his hands and then turning and flailing his arms. He then lowers his arms to his body and is shot by Oregon State Police troopers, the FBI said.

The dead rancher's relatives said the video seems to show him gesturing, or trying to keep his balance in the snow.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-oregon-militia-fbi-idUSKCN0V71T7



Authorities say Fincicum was failing to surrender and that's why he was shot, but a witness who has come forward on social media says that's not what she saw.

"He got out of the car and he had his hands in the air and he's like, 'Just shoot me then, just shoot me,' and they did, they shot him dead," said Victoria Sharp.
Sharp said she was in the vehicle with Finicum when he was shot. Finicum family attorney, Todd Macfarlane, said the witness accounts contradict what law enforcement is saying.
"This wasn't some kind of routine traffic stop; this was a planned ambush with over 40 vehicles"
http://fox13now.com/2016/01/27/attorney-for-family-of-man-killed-in-oregon-standoff-says-stop-preceding-gunfire-was-an-ambush/

http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/27/us/oregon-siege-traffic-stop/

Michele Fiore, a Republican assemblywoman in Nevada who is close to the occupiers, though, tweeted that Finicum was "murdered with his hands up."
According to Fiore, Bundy told his wife that Finicum was cooperating with officials with his hands up when he was shot three times.
"LaVoy's hands were in the air and he was shot in the face. Ammon Bundy reported there were six witnesses," according to a Facebook message posted by the group LaVoy Finicum's Stand For Freedom.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/oregon-militia-spokesman-allegedly-killed-raid/story?id=36547400

The video is pretty clear in showing that this guy reached for something in his coat.  That's not real smart to begin with.  Plus, they already evaded, attempted to run over an FBI agent.  I'd say under the circumstances here they were pretty damned restrained.

[Vashta Nerada]

The video is pretty clear in showing that this guy reached for something in his coat.  That's not real smart to begin with.  Plus, they already evaded, attempted to run over an FBI agent.  I'd say under the circumstances here they were pretty damned restrained.

Ignore the narration and just watch the video

The agent who was "almost run down" didnt move until the truck started to veer away, then he runs directly in its path.
--you only do that when you are firing, or trying to justify firing.
He created his own "Im in fear for my life" situation by using a common tactic.


The video shows police lied about the victim 'charging' at them. The video shows police lied about the victim aiming at them with his truck.
....and this was the video they WANTED shown.  Just imagine what more detailed dashcam or bodycam video would reveal.

[Hoss]

Ignore the narration and just watch the video

The agent who was "almost run down" didnt move until the truck started to veer away, then he runs directly in its path.
--you only do that when you are firing, or trying to justify firing.
He created his own "Im in fear for my life" situation by using a common tactic.


The video shows police lied about the victim 'charging' at them. The video shows police lied about the victim aiming at them with his truck.
....and this was the video they WANTED shown.  Just imagine what more detailed dashcam or bodycam video would reveal.

What narration?  I've watched the unedited video (save for the eight minute standoff) and there was none.  I think I'm pretty good and coming to my own conclusions and not having someone else do it for me.

[Red Arrow]

I think I'm pretty good and coming to my own conclusions and not having someone else do it for me.

That's NOT allowed.

[dbacksfan 2.0]

Ignore the narration and just watch the video

The agent who was "almost run down" didnt move until the truck started to veer away, then he runs directly in its path.
--you only do that when you are firing, or trying to justify firing.
He created his own "Im in fear for my life" situation by using a common tactic.


The video shows police lied about the victim 'charging' at them. The video shows police lied about the victim aiming at them with his truck.
....and this was the video they WANTED shown.  Just imagine what more detailed dashcam or bodycam video would reveal.

[cannon_fodder]

The agent who was "almost run down" didnt move until the truck started to veer away, then he runs directly in its path.
--you only do that when you are firing, or trying to justify firing.
He created his own "Im in fear for my life" situation by using a common tactic.

You are jumping to wild conclusions. First, your statement assumes that the agent was firing as the vehicle appeared like it was going to crash into the blockade - when there is currently zero evidence to support that conclusion.

Second, you are assuming that a trained person would jump in front of a moving vehicle in order to try and shoot the vehicle or driver. This is contrary to all law enforcement or military training. The mind strains to figure out why one would do such a thing. That and the video clearly shows it didn't happen so flippantly.

Watching the video the agent clearly in a position of damned if you do, damned if you don't. If he stays put and the guys running at the road block keep going straight, he keeps clocked. If he jumps to the side and they swerve, he gets clocked. From what I see, the poor SOB is just trying to split the difference and keep his options open - which is why he gets shoved over by the snow spray and not murdered by the vehicle.

Not sure if you are weaving a conspiracy theory or a factual distortion, and while certainly there is more evidence to have  clear picture of this incident, nothing supports your contentions thus far. Making them conjecture at best. Frankly, only one of these two opposing groups has threatened to kill the other...

The video shows police lied about the victim 'charging' at them. The video shows police lied about the victim aiming at them with his truck.
....and this was the video they WANTED shown.  Just imagine what more detailed dashcam or bodycam video would reveal.

He certainly did aim at them with his truck. There is no question about that. With about 20 feet to go he swerved into a snow bank. The "charged" thing is just such nonsense, I get why someone would say this - but if they shot him simply because he was "charging" it would be BS. BUT... again, if you threaten to kill police officers, confirm that you are always armed, run from police officers, refuse to obey commands, and then reach inside a coat pocket --- getting shot is the expected result.

The FBI released a video within days (a day?). Not the year+ it takes Chicago PD to release a video. It clearly doesn't end the inquiry, but the light it does shed isn't helping the conspiracy theory that people so badly want. I hope we get more video and audio eventually, as always, these things are interesting to follow.

But the conspiracy attempt fails. If they wanted to murder these guys, they certainly could have done it a lot easier and on a lot grander scale. The ONLY person killed was the most vocal about killing police to defend himself and dying for the cause, and the only one who got out of the vehicle and reached for a gun.

Plus --- at the end of the day he was killed by a State Trooper. Not a conspiratorial Federal agent with gold fringe on his flag. So no problems, right?

[patric]

The geek in me is intrigued by the gunsight display on the FBI's spy plane.  They're redacting more than just the aircraft registration number, wouldnt you think?  Maybe a weapons system? Stingray?  Inquiring minds want to know 

[swake]

The geek in me is intrigued by the gunsight display on the FBI's spy plane.  They're redacting more than just the aircraft registration number, wouldnt you think?  Maybe a weapons system? Stingray?  Inquiring minds want to know 

I certainly hope they had weapons in the helicopters. If those guys had come out of the truck with assault rifles blazing, which was highly likely and in fact what they said would happen, the cops would need something to keep the situation from becoming a protracted and deadly gun battle.

[patric]

I certainly hope they had weapons in the helicopters. If those guys had come out of the truck with assault rifles blazing, which was highly likely and in fact what they said would happen, the cops would need something to keep the situation from becoming a protracted and deadly gun battle.

[Townsend]

Lymangood's death will haunt me forever

[dbacksfan 2.0]

Lymangood's death will haunt me forever

Saw it at the Boman Twin when it came out, and I think most of the audience cringed when he was killed.

[Vashta Nerada]

you are assuming that a trained person would jump in front of a moving vehicle in order to try and shoot the vehicle or driver. This is contrary to all law enforcement or military training. The mind strains to figure out why one would do such a thing. That and the video clearly shows it didn't happen so flippantly.

Jumping in the path of a vehicle as a tactic to justify the use of deadly force started gaining traction in the '80's as a way to get around SCOTUS decisions outlawing the shooting of fleeing felons.

There have been too many dashcam videos in recent years for anyone to be ignorant of that. Here's one

'Lt. Mark Tiller attempted to stop the driver by stepping into the path of the fleeing vehicle... Covington referred to Tiller as a "victim" of "attempted murder" in an incident report, and stated that Tiller fired his weapon in self-defense because Hammond "drove his vehicle directly at the officer."'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Zachary_Hammond

[Vashta Nerada]

He certainly did aim at them with his truck. There is no question about that. With about 20 feet to go he swerved into a snow bank. The "charged" thing is just such nonsense, I get why someone would say this - but if they shot him simply because he was "charging" it would be BS. BUT... again, if you threaten to kill police officers, confirm that you are always armed, run from police officers, refuse to obey commands, and then reach inside a coat pocket --- getting shot is the expected result.

The FBI released a video within days (a day?). Not the year+ it takes Chicago PD to release a video. It clearly doesn't end the inquiry, but the light it does shed isn't helping the conspiracy theory that people so badly want. I hope we get more video and audio eventually, as always, these things are interesting to follow.

Then they reached the roadblock, where Finicum hit the brakes and slid into a snowbank. Cox said she could not tell if Finicum was trying to go around the blockade or avoid hitting the police vehicles.
Next, Finicum jumped out of the truck, she said. He tried to tell police they were on the way to see the sheriff of Grant County and also said, "Go ahead and shoot me."
He had his hands up, Cox said, and was shot in the leg. He was then hit by a sniper about 50 feet away with a rifle. He was hit with gunfire after he was down and dead.
Cox said he never reached for an inside pocket in his jacket, which appears to happen on the video.
"He had a pistol on his hip, why in the hell would he reach inside a pocket?" she said of Finicum.

http://www.ktvb.com/news/local/witness-insider-helped-police-arrest-bundy-group/28812700

Ryan Payne stuck both his hands out the window and gunfire broke the mirror. He was hit in the wrist

[cannon_fodder]

Shenanigans.

1) I'm going to believe an accomplice over the video I watched? This guy was in a car lodged in a snow bank, he had just been in a crash, and didn't have the view of the incident the video does. Never mind the fact that it is directly in his interest to lie. Do I trust logic and what I saw, or a felon.

2) If he hit the brakes, it was moments before impact and as he swerved - but I see no evidence that the brakes were hit. Vehicles don't turn sharply when the brakes are applied, there was no skid marks or smok from dragging tires, and no noticeable slowing until they plowed into the snow bank. Saying he hit the brakes and slide into the snow bank is BS - he was trying to drive around the roadblock and failed.

3) "He tried to tell police they were on the way to see the Sheriff..." Who cares? "I want my momma!" Don't care and irrelevant to the arrest. "Go ahead and shoot me!"   Followed by all his "friends" being SHOCKED and OUTRAGED that he was shot?

4) Shot in the leg with his hands up? Really? Hard to see that on the video. Since most of his legs were buried, the shot would of had to have been to the upper thigh, he took the bullet like a real champ and didn't even flinch!  Also amazing that there was no blood on the whites snow.  I've never managed to shoot an animal on snow with a rifle and not have blood splatter onto the snow.

5) He was then shot by a "sniper" with a rifle from 50 feet away. That would be a very difficult shot for a "sniper," as it is very hard to see a target within 50 Yards, let alone 50 feet, with a decent powered scope. Ignoring the fact that a "sniper" wouldn't set up that close. Forensics will easily tell if he was shot by a rifle, which wouldn't surprise me at all... but the account given here is pure fiction.

If the FBI wanted to use snipers to off these guys, they could have done so at anytime in the last month. They could have done it at night and blamed it on infighting, blamed it on an accidental discharge within the compound, or simply said the shooter was watching through his scope and the now dead man pointed his weapon. All done with no media present.

6) After he is down you can still see his moving his arms. It will be easy enough to tell how and when he is shot when full audio version from the ground cameras are released. If they thought he was still going for a gun, they would keep shooting him. But the odds are this guy thought the flashbangs and pepper balls was ongoing shooting at his friend.

Also worth noting that in this man's story, they peacefully surrendered to the FBI and his friend got out to surrendered. He was then shot in the back by a sniper and as he lay bleeding on the ground they continued to shoot him. So he and his buddy sat in the truck like punks and did nothing.  I thought they were all tough Rambo guys willing to die for the cause? But your friend is "murdered" and you cower with your guns in the stolen truck?

7) "He never reached for an inside pocked in his jacket..."  Again, I have eyes. I can see things. The video shows him reaching in his jacket, at very least - the perception that he reached into his jacket is justified. If Cox has objective knowledge of the decedents intent, cool. Ask Elvis how he is doing. Otherwise, just so much BS.

"Why the hell would he reach inside a pocket?"  Because according to every report, he had a loaded 9mm in that pocket.


My favorite conspiracy theories are the ones that make no sense and are controverted by the available facts.

[swake]

Shenanigans.

1) I'm going to believe an accomplice over the video I watched? This guy was in a car lodged in a snow bank, he had just been in a crash, and didn't have the view of the incident the video does. Never mind the fact that it is directly in his interest to lie. Do I trust logic and what I saw, or a felon.

2) If he hit the brakes, it was moments before impact and as he swerved - but I see no evidence that the brakes were hit. Vehicles don't turn sharply when the brakes are applied, there was no skid marks or smok from dragging tires, and no noticeable slowing until they plowed into the snow bank. Saying he hit the brakes and slide into the snow bank is BS - he was trying to drive around the roadblock and failed.

3) "He tried to tell police they were on the way to see the Sheriff..." Who cares? "I want my momma!" Don't care and irrelevant to the arrest. "Go ahead and shoot me!"   Followed by all his "friends" being SHOCKED and OUTRAGED that he was shot?

4) Shot in the leg with his hands up? Really? Hard to see that on the video. Since most of his legs were buried, the shot would of had to have been to the upper thigh, he took the bullet like a real champ and didn't even flinch!  Also amazing that there was no blood on the whites snow.  I've never managed to shoot an animal on snow with a rifle and not have blood splatter onto the snow.

5) He was then shot by a "sniper" with a rifle from 50 feet away. That would be a very difficult shot for a "sniper," as it is very hard to see a target within 50 Yards, let alone 50 feet, with a decent powered scope. Ignoring the fact that a "sniper" wouldn't set up that close. Forensics will easily tell if he was shot by a rifle, which wouldn't surprise me at all... but the account given here is pure fiction.

If the FBI wanted to use snipers to off these guys, they could have done so at anytime in the last month. They could have done it at night and blamed it on infighting, blamed it on an accidental discharge within the compound, or simply said the shooter was watching through his scope and the now dead man pointed his weapon. All done with no media present.

6) After he is down you can still see his moving his arms. It will be easy enough to tell how and when he is shot when full audio version from the ground cameras are released. If they thought he was still going for a gun, they would keep shooting him. But the odds are this guy thought the flashbangs and pepper balls was ongoing shooting at his friend.

Also worth noting that in this man's story, they peacefully surrendered to the FBI and his friend got out to surrendered. He was then shot in the back by a sniper and as he lay bleeding on the ground they continued to shoot him. So he and his buddy sat in the truck like punks and did nothing.  I thought they were all tough Rambo guys willing to die for the cause? But your friend is "murdered" and you cower with your guns in the stolen truck?

7) "He never reached for an inside pocked in his jacket..."  Again, I have eyes. I can see things. The video shows him reaching in his jacket, at very least - the perception that he reached into his jacket is justified. If Cox has objective knowledge of the decedents intent, cool. Ask Elvis how he is doing. Otherwise, just so much BS.

"Why the hell would he reach inside a pocket?"  Because according to every report, he had a loaded 9mm in that pocket.


My favorite conspiracy theories are the ones that make no sense and are controverted by the available facts.

But jet fuel can't melt steel beams!