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Re: City Budget Shortfalls and Impact Fees

Started by Limabean, June 18, 2009, 10:15:53 AM

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Limabean

Would someone explain to me why in all of this discussion about looking for money to support this year's city budget, no one ever mentions impact fees for developers/developments?

I know we are begging for new development but so is the rest of the nation's cities and the rest of the nation's cities charge impact fees and still realize development projects.

With all of the development excitement downtown, why not charge impact fees?


Gaspar

How about a toll gates on all of the roads in and out of the downtown area? 

We could charge a "use toll" for entering the city.  Since most people who work in the city live in the suburbs, it would encourage people to move within the gates. 

Or we could set up a system where you could get a free parking permit if you live within a certain city boundary (say inside the loop).  All others would be required to pay hefty parking fees, and of course the "use toll."

Anyone developing property within the city would be required to pay an impact fee, a permit fee, a parking fee, and if they are an out-of-state company they would pay a visitor's fee.  I bet we can think of a whole bunch of fees that developers and businesses would be happy to pay, nay. . . they would line up to pay.

Lets charge a fee for phone calls, emails and mail going in or out of the city too.

How about a porta-potty fee.  The "Johnny On The Spot" folks could collect it with a coin operated locks on their little blue "urine saunas."

We can fix everything.
When attacked by a mob of clowns, always go for the juggler.

Red Arrow

#2
Quote from: Gaspar on June 18, 2009, 11:01:18 AM
How about a toll gates on all of the roads in and out of the downtown area?  Charge any Tulsan wanting to leave the city limits.

We could charge a "use toll" for entering the city.  Since most people who work in the city live in the suburbs, it would encourage people to move within the gates.  Or cause companies to move their jobs to where their employees live.  Actually, London England has implemented a graded toll area depending on what part of the city you want to drive in, what hours, etc.

Or we could set up a system where you could get a free parking permit if you live within a certain city boundary (say inside the loop).  All others would be required to pay hefty parking fees, and of course the "use toll."  There are places that have resident parking permits, all others good luck or find a pay parking space.  All Tulsa would need to do is issue stickers to residents and finish putting up parking meter zones.  Then raise the rates on the street.  Private lots would be required to raise their rates to stay competitive. It would cause people to use Public Transit. Oops, we don't have an effective system that riders of choice would use.  No problem, there would be no choice.


Anyone developing property within the city would be required to pay an impact fee, a permit fee, a parking fee, and if they are an out-of-state company they would pay a visitor's fee.  I bet we can think of a whole bunch of fees that developers and businesses would be happy to pay, nay. . . they would line up to pay. They would have to with cutbacks at City Hall.
Lets charge a fee for phone calls, emails and mail going in or out of the city too.  I have seen some kind of local tax on my cell phone bill.  I don't have it with me or I could be more specific.

How about a porta-potty fee.  The "Johnny On The Spot" folks could collect it with a coin operated locks on their little blue "urine saunas."  Never heard of Pay Toilets in bus stations and airports?  They used to exist anyway.  I think I remember a dime a visit.  About the same as a phone call on a pay phone.  PLUS..  the rest room attendant wanted a tip too.

We can fix everything.

Then people in the suburbs would miss the downtown shopping but it would be too expensive to go.  They would build new shopping streets with stores up to the sidewalk.  Parking would be out back but "free". ("Free" is actually included in the price of goods purchased since the stores would need to share the expense of the shared parking.) The actual shopping area would be pedestrian friendly and cars would be banned from the shopping street.  In order to conserve land, the stores could be 2 stories tall. A mix of clothing, specialty, department, food and other stores could draw off each others' presence to attract customers.  Elevated sidewalks would make the 2nd story stores easier to access.  Since it's hot in the summer and cold in the winter, the shopping street could be covered. The enclosed area could be heated and airconditioned.  Oh, wait a minute. That's a shopping mall. We can't have that.

I wonder why it's so hard to keep a downtown area alive.

Edit: had to change color from orange, it was too hard to see against the blue background of a quote. Sorry about the red color.
Edit2: oops, missed a line.
 

Gaspar

#3
Quote from: Red Arrow on June 18, 2009, 12:37:22 PM
Then people in the suburbs would miss the downtown shopping but it would be too expensive to go.  They would build new shopping streets with stores up to the sidewalk.  Parking would be out back but "free". ("Free" is actually included in the price of goods purchased since the stores would need to share the expense of the shared parking.) The actual shopping area would be pedestrian friendly and cars would be banned from the shopping street.  In order to conserve land, the stores could be 2 stories tall. A mix of clothing, specialty, department, food and other stores could draw off each others' presence to attract customers.  Elevated sidewalks would make the 2nd story stores easier to access.  Since it's hot in the summer and cold in the winter, the shopping street could be covered. The enclosed area could be heated and airconditioned.  Oh, wait a minute. That's a shopping mall. We can't have that.

I wonder why it's so hard to keep a downtown area alive.

Edit: had to change color from orange, it was too hard to see against the blue background of a quote. Sorry about the red color.
Edit2: oops, missed a line.

Strange how a little sarcasm can spur the recognition of painful truths.

Malls, mega-theaters, abundant parking, big lawns, 3 car garages, quiet residential streets, the dark night sky with stars, and the SUV based family have changed our world. 

We can build and develop for this majority-demographic, or attempt to convince ourselves that we can, through development,  manipulate the demographic into something it is not.

We do have a minor-demographic that wants to live and work in downtown.  Have we reached capacity on development for this group?  I don't think so, but without "destination based" venues, even this group will venture outside to shop, eat and play.  I'm not convinced anyone has really addressed a destination venue to capture and keep them. 

We are each very myopic in our own interpretations of what is important, and I think that causes us to ask questions to the wrong people.  Don't ask downtowners what they want downtown to be, ask the people you want to move there.  Ask the appropriate demographic groups living in other cities with populated thriving downtown cultures.

A focus group of native Tulsans is going to yield the exact same stagnate results that the last 20 focus groups over the last 20 years has yielded.  Then some of us will get upset at the results.

I would propose a exchange program, where delegations of representatives visit Tulsa and are given a place downtown to live for a week.  Fresh eyes, with fresh perspectives.  Some of the things we strive to preserve or destroy will have different meaning to them.  Most of us have lived in other cities that we have either loved or loathed, but our perceptions were very different from the natives.  I'd like to know what fascinates and disgusts outsiders about our downtown.  Are there attractions or detractions that we consistently overlook because we "step" over them every day?

I went to work for a company in Oklahoma City right out of college.  It was a big national firm supplying products to retailers across the country.  The first day at the corporate office, I noticed a huge brown stain on the grey/white carpet in the center of the lobby.  You couldn't miss it.  Looked like a coffee pot had been murdered.  I said nothing.  It was apparent it had been there for a long time. 

About 5 years down the road I had to fly in for corporate meetings and many of our clients were coming in for tours of the office and factory.  I went to my boss (the owner of the company) and asked him if I could have a carpet cleaning company come by and remove the huge brown stain in the lobby carpet.  "What stain?" he said.  We marched to the lobby with several of the vice presidents, an engineer, and the receptionist (who's desk was in front of the stain for the last 10 years).  They were all amazed by the existence of a huge stain in their lobby.  The offending stain took less than 15 minutes for Stanley Steamer to remove.

What are we not seeing?

When attacked by a mob of clowns, always go for the juggler.

Red Arrow

I checked my phone bill.  It includes state, county, and city sales tax. Everyone wants a cut.

Ramble with no answers to follow:

As long as the attitude of trying to get the last drop of blood from outsiders rather than trying to offer something the suburbs don't have persists, the downtown area of any city will have a difficult time trying to survive.  I think the BOK center, the ball park, and building the entertainment areas are a good step for Tulsa.  Folks living downtown will probably stay with the people that like being in an urban environment. It should be available for those that want it.  Unfortunately, developers only want to build (or rebuild) upscale places because that's where the money is.  Everyone wants granite countertops and ceramic tile or hardwood floors. I expect most of the "affordable" places that other cities have is missing in Tulsa.  Some of it may have never existed since Tulsa grew up with the automobile.  Places like NY City, Philly, Boston, etc grew up when people had to walk or if they were lucky take a horse drawn street car. They had to live close to work.  The jobs were in the city or back on the farm without much in between.   Philadelphia PA suburbs grew along the rail lines. At first it was the wealthy that moved out.  As transportation to work became affordable and available, the the middle class moved out. Just as there are some who want to live elbow to elbow, there are some that want to have some personal space.  That will not change.  Economics may force people into a situation they don't like but have no choice but to endure, both ways.

There are many on this forum that passionately promote a dense urban environment.  I will admit that there are advantages to it but not everyone wants it for themselves.  It is interesting to note that a hundred years ago the (real) trolley companies built amusement parks at the outer edges of the cities. The parks served at least two purposes.  One was that they provided weekend revenue for the trolley companies as the parks gave city dwellers a place to go.  The second is that it provided an escape from the packed city environment, even if only for a few hours, for the citizens of the city.  Remember that this was before mechanical air-conditioning that most of us expect today.  I remember the remnants of Willow Grove Park outside of Philadelphia, PA in the 50s. By the 60s it had decayed and by the 70s it was gone.  Even my mom (grew up during the real Great Depression) tells of going to the Saturday movie for a nickel or dime, if they could spare it, to be in the nice cool air-conditioned movie theater for a few hours.

Downtowners and Midtowners complain about the S.E. part of Tulsa.  Other cities have done the same thing.  Philadelphia consists of many areas that were originally separate developments. Most of them are miles from the Central Business District and (former) manufacturing areas. I don't remember the history enough to know if they were friendly take overs.  Public transportation is what linked many of them together.  Many of the suburbs maintained their own identity. As they grew, they became one continuous area separated by a "Welcome to ____" sign.  I was a volunteer fireman in our town. If one town had a big fire, a neighboring town would be asked to send a standby truck and crew.  We both received and gave help in that capacity. There were the usual rivalries among towns but when the chips were down, we cooperated.  At least that's the way I remember it from the late 60s.

The trolley line that ran near our house was a privately held company until about 1968. The line was originally created in the early 1900s from the edge of Philly to Media,the county seat of Delaware County. TOD filled in much of the space between. SEPTA was created as a regional transit authority in the mid 60s.  SEPTA has had its problems but the concept of a regional transit system keeps the petty fighting of whether a bus or rail line crosses a city line to a minimum.  Everyone in the region can hate the "Authority" equally.

No one expects everyone that works in NYC, Philadelphia, Boston, Baltimore, St. Louis.... to live in the city limits.  Tulsa should not have unreasonable expectations in that regard.  The City of Tulsa does need to offer something the surrounding cities do not offer to remain the hub. I know I am repeating myself on that but I believe it to be an important concept.  There has been plenty of discussion here about how Tulsa became the "Big City" rather than perhaps Sapulpa.  From my perspective, Jenks is trying to offer options rather than putting up clannish road blocks.  As much as we try to deny it, I still perceive clannish attitudes, at least among some of the more vocal on this forum.  This goes hand in hand with "Your way of life is unsustainable.  You must do it my way or the world will come to a screaching halt."

Well, it's time to make lunch for tomorrow.  I hope I have given some observations from my past to think about.