Public Insurance Off The Table?

[guido911]

I was there.  So was my family. 

Reagan was my commander-in-chief. 

[nathanm]

Please don't confuse the ignorant rantings of a few thousand (if that) cro magnons with the idealogy of every person who identifies themself as a conservative or Republican.

Start here:

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/06/17/politics/politicalhotsheet/entry5093897.shtml

http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUSTRE55F7HR20090616

http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=18329

I don't think that shall-issue is the solution to our problem. Sadly, that seems to be the only real reform present in the Republican plan, and that's something everyone agrees must be done.

Other than that, buying insurance in another state? Please enlighten me as to how that will actually do anything.

To be onest, I think the Democratic proposals that are on the table aren't real solutions either. Neither party is willing to endorse the radical change that is necessary to solve the problem. I blame the billions of dollars being spent on ads and campaign contributions by the insurance lobby.

[guido911]

Here is an interesting article relating to the practice of defensive medicine by doctors, which I believe is an integral part of the tort reform debate.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/30/AR2009073002816.html

Many focus attention on the relatively insignificant payout of med mal awards, this is an angle that often times gets lost.

[nathanm]

Here is an interesting article relating to the practice of defensive medicine by doctors, which I believe is an integral part of the tort reform debate.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/30/AR2009073002816.html

Many focus attention on the relatively insignificant payout of med mal awards, this is an angle that often times gets lost.

There are just as many unneeded tests ordered because the doctor wants to pay this month's payment on his shiny new MRI machine as there are tests ordered to ward off malpractice suits.

[Conan71]

I don't think that shall-issue is the solution to our problem. Sadly, that seems to be the only real reform present in the Republican plan, and that's something everyone agrees must be done.

Other than that, buying insurance in another state? Please enlighten me as to how that will actually do anything.

To be onest, I think the Democratic proposals that are on the table aren't real solutions either. Neither party is willing to endorse the radical change that is necessary to solve the problem. I blame the billions of dollars being spent on ads and campaign contributions by the insurance lobby.

Now it's gone from: "I've not heard anything but 'socialism', etc." to: "I don't think shall-issue is the solution..."

If your ideas are so entrenched that the GOP can do nothing right nor constructive, then I'll play the part and go back to posting humorous photos and ad hominems just to stir the sh!t bucket.

I do appreciate that you are willing to admit that the Democrat proposals aren't solutions either.  On that you and I agree. 

What very few understand is that health care reform is not about what is best for the patient.  This is about extorting money from yet one more industry (actually this is a major score, you get providers, big pharma, insurers, equipment manufacturers, etc- this is far better than the fleecing of big tobacco) by making it appear totally evil, and securing power in 2010, 2012 & beyond.  If no one in Congress was remotely worried about retaining their job, there's no telling what they might attempt in this bill.

If you happened to take note of the real truth behind where contributions from health care professionals, big pharma, big insurance, etc. is going, looking at it from strictly contributions to the Democrat and Republican parties and the DNC and RNC, it's close to a dead heat.  Both parties appear to be collecting dirty money for influence.  The net result will be a circle-jerk mish-mash that does nothing for the people it's claimed to help and all those big, evil for-profit companies will be required to give more money to the government so we can hire yet even more government employees to administer what ever "program" we wind up with.  Private jobs will be lost as a result and will be shifted to the government payroll.  All these industries are jockying for at this point is how little they can get away with forking over to the government in revenues and autonomy.

Government doesn't need to be as big as it is now, it certainly doesn't need to be any bigger.  The only true advantage to a large bureaucracy is job security for those who work for the government and perhaps stabilizing and lowering unemployment.  I suppose it could be argued too that it becomes workfare instead of welfare if only it would end up employing those who would otherwise collect money being unproductive..

[nathanm]

Now it's gone from: "I've not heard anything but 'socialism', etc." to: "I don't think shall-issue is the solution..."

I read the articles you posted and found them to be referring to do nothing bills. Are you saying I have to like the Republican proposal or I'm just a shill?

I do appreciate that you are willing to admit that the Democrat proposals aren't solutions either.  On that you and I agree. 

I think the Democrat's proposals I've seen are of the "better than nothing" category. Sure as smile better than the Medicare Part D fleece job we got from the Republicans, but utterly worthless without the public option.

What very few understand is that health care reform is not about what is best for the patient.  This is about extorting money from yet one more industry (actually this is a major score, you get providers, big pharma, insurers, equipment manufacturers, etc- this is far better than the fleecing of big tobacco) by making it appear totally evil, and securing power in 2010, 2012 & beyond.  If no one in Congress was remotely worried about retaining their job, there's no telling what they might attempt in this bill.

Insurance companies aren't evil, but if they were people they would be. You are right, though, if it were about what is best for the people of our country, we'd go with single payer universal health care and be done with health insurance except insofar as they chose to offer supplemental coverage.

This watered down BS we're going to get thanks to the Rush-bot lies and the big pharma and big insurance lobbying money won't do nearly what it should.

[Red Arrow]

I have noticed that when a political program is not being well received, the claim is that "we are not getting our message out".  Sometimes the reality is that you are getting your message out and it is being rejected.   

[Conan71]

I have noticed that when a political program is not being well received, the claim is that "we are not getting our message out".  Sometimes the reality is that you are getting your message out and it is being rejected.   

You're hearing a different excuse than I am.  All I keep hearing is "racism" and "hate".

Of course tools showing up with guns to town hall meetings and rhetoric like "nazi" and "death squad" isn't helping the opposition.

[guido911]

There are just as many unneeded tests ordered because the doctor wants to pay this month's payment on his shiny new MRI machine as there are tests ordered to ward off malpractice suits.

Gotta link to support that point? Still, as expected, you continue to carry the water for Obama's message. Remember when Obama came out with this real winner of an argument as to tonsillectomies:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204886304574308472181248330.html

[nathanm]

Sometimes the reality is that you are getting your message out and it is being rejected.   

And sometimes your message is drowned out by factually incorrect rhetoric spewed forth by the other side's political operatives.

If I believed what the wingnutters were saying about Obama's plan, I'd be protesting in the streets also. Luckily, I have the wherewithal to understand what both sides are saying and make my own decision.

And guido, I suppose if you consider being in greater agreement with Obama on this issue than with Boehner, Limbaugh, and Beck carrying water, then yes, I am proudly carrying water for the concept of forming one's own opinion.

[Conan71]

If I believed what the wingnutters were saying about Obama's plan, I'd be protesting in the streets also. Luckily, I have the wherewithal to understand what both sides are saying and make my own decision.

"Wing-nutters?"  "tea-baggers?"

You won't even give their POV a chance, much less a second thought.

I hope you don't consider yourself a moderate or independent.

"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, so long as it resembles my own"

-Conanism

[nathanm]

"Wing-nutters?"  "tea-baggers?"

You won't even give their POV a chance, much less a second thought.

I hope you don't consider yourself a moderate or independent.

I take it you don't think there are some on both sides who have their heads so far up their asses they can't tell truth from a lie? Basically, you know you're a wingnutter if you're talking about "death councils" or saying "obama=hitler." Equally, you are a stoopid librul if you say "bush=hitler" or you're talking about "no more war for oil."

I hate to be the one to break this to you, but there are some people so enamored with their position that they have proven themselves to be not worth listening to since they can only think in terms of their "side."

If you can't see that, you may be listening to KRMG or watching Fox News too much.

I'm an independent in the sense that both parties are full of idiots. That said, I'm wedded to the Democrats as the lesser of two evils. Neither party really represents me, FWIW. Maybe if the Republicans stop spooning the evangelists, the defense lobby, and the Chicago school types, I might regain some respect for them.

[Conan71]

I hate to be the one to break this to you, but there are some people so enamored with their position that they have proven themselves to be not worth listening to since they can only think in terms of their "side."

Hmmm, no I wasn't aware of that. 

[waterboy]

Conan, your Conanism is too close to my "Waterspout" which I stole from a poster back in the seventies. I live by this credo, "Its my opinion and...its also very true".

[Conan71]

Conan, your Conanism is too close to my "Waterspout" which I stole from a poster back in the seventies. I live by this credo, "Its my opinion and...its also very true".

That's a slice of awesomeness!