Lee's Bicycles

[Hoss]

Its not about needing to or not imo, unless they have some way of expanding that is in some way in accordance with the Brookside Plan, they shouldn't be allowed to expand.

There are places all over this city where you can't build things unless you get an exception approved (no mixed use, no high-rise, parking requirements, etc.).  This area is no different and I can't see that Brookside would allow a typical QT expansion in this area.  It would be completely anathema to the Brookside Plan.

You do know this is QT, right?   

They'll get it.  I call it 'QT rules'.

[SXSW]

Are they in effect doubling the amount of gas pumps?  That seems to be the only reason they would need the entire block from 36th St to 36th Pl.  I do hope if this is the case they put in a better sidewalk along Peoria and plant some trees on their easement.  Is the actual store itself expanding too?  This is the second time QT has frustrated me in as many weeks.  At 15th & Denver and 36th & Peoria QT could build an urban store that is a model for inner city convenience store/gas stations by building the store itself up to the sidewalk at the corner of each intersection with the gas pumps behind.  But instead it's more of the same crap.

[Townsend]

  At 15th & Denver and 36th & Peoria QT could build an urban store that is a model for inner city convenience store/gas stations by building the store itself up to the sidewalk at the corner of each intersection with the gas pumps behind.  But instead it's more of the same crap.

Like Walmart, they believe that the average Tulsa Consumer will not understand the "parking in the rear" issue.  It will cost them customers if the parking and gas pumps are not easily seen from the street.

[PonderInc]

On 9/23/09, QT got an "alternative landscape compliance" plan for 36th and Peoria approved at the TMAPC.  I can't find any exhibits online, so can't tell what the new store layout is going to look like.  Hmmm.

[SXSW]

Like Walmart, they believe that the average Tulsa Consumer will not understand the "parking in the rear" issue.  It will cost them customers if the parking and gas pumps are not easily seen from the street.

Well if the planning dept. had any backbone they wouldn't let them do it, regardless of the ignorance of some Tulsa consumers.  If you can't figure out that parking and the gas pumps are in the rear you shouldn't have a driver's license.

[Townsend]

Well if the planning dept. had any backbone they wouldn't let them do it, regardless of the ignorance of some Tulsa consumers.  If you can't figure out that parking and the gas pumps are in the rear you shouldn't have a driver's license.

They are the "not enough parking downtown" folk.

[SXSW]

They are the "not enough parking downtown" folk.

..and they have nearly the entire city plus the suburbs that cater to their needs.  Downtown and midtown should be the exception and if they don't like it, too bad.  Another reason to get the comprehensive plan implemented as soon as we can and we have to hope the next mayor embraces it.

[Red Arrow]

The attitude is getting a bit militant here. 

Remember that when a residential neighborhood doesn't want the character of their neighborhood changed by adding multi-story condos, mixed use, McMansions, etc.

[OurTulsa]

..and they have nearly the entire city plus the suburbs that cater to their needs.  Downtown and midtown should be the exception and if they don't like it, too bad.  Another reason to get the comprehensive plan implemented as soon as we can and we have to hope the next mayor embraces it.

Exactly!

Until then and more specifically until we start implementing it by changing some of the Codes that guide development in particular parts of Tulsa the City doesn't have a leg to stand on if QT's already got the zoning.

[Conan71]

But, are they going to make this one more pedestrian-friendly? 

[SXSW]

The attitude is getting a bit militant here. 

Remember that when a residential neighborhood doesn't want the character of their neighborhood changed by adding multi-story condos, mixed use, McMansions, etc.

In that case you have the NIMBY (Not In My BackYard) syndrome rear its head.  I'm not advocating QT not expand its stores in urban areas.  I love QT and think their expanded stores are a great idea, and understand that the busier stores in neighborhoods like Brookside and Riverview have a lot of demand/customers because there aren't more QT's in those areas like in other parts of the city.  The bone I have to pick is that these neighborhoods are two of only a handful of walkable, higher density neighborhoods in the city and that these QT's do actually get a lot of foot and bike traffic unlike the one at, say, 91st & Yale.  They are also part of the overall urban fabric of the neighborhood which happens to be more pedestrian-oriented with buildings facing the sidewalk, zero lot lines, parking in the rear and on the street, etc.  The question is does QT not care about the character of the neighborhoods that give them all of their customers to even entertain the idea of changing their site plan?  Or is the company just all about business and changing the 'standard' site plan could be more expensive, even in distinct neighborhoods in QT's hometown?   Or...is QT not educated in how to build urban because doing so is rare in Tulsa and the city's zoning/planning does not offer any guidance??

[Red Arrow]

In that case you have the NIMBY (Not In My BackYard) syndrome rear its head.  I'm not advocating QT not expand its stores in urban areas.  I love QT and think their expanded stores are a great idea, and understand that the busier stores in neighborhoods like Brookside and Riverview have a lot of demand/customers because there aren't more QT's in those areas like in other parts of the city.  The bone I have to pick is that these neighborhoods are two of only a handful of walkable, higher density neighborhoods in the city and that these QT's do actually get a lot of foot and bike traffic unlike the one at, say, 91st & Yale.  They are also part of the overall urban fabric of the neighborhood which happens to be more pedestrian-oriented with buildings facing the sidewalk, zero lot lines, parking in the rear and on the street, etc.  The question is does QT not care about the character of the neighborhoods that give them all of their customers to even entertain the idea of changing their site plan?  Or is the company just all about business and changing the 'standard' site plan could be more expensive, even in distinct neighborhoods in QT's hometown?   Or...is QT not educated in how to build urban because doing so is rare in Tulsa and the city's zoning/planning does not offer any guidance??

I can see some NIMBY in "your" case too.  "You" don't want a certain style of QT store in Brookside because it doesn't blend in with the desires of the community.  I happen to agree that QT should try to blend in a bit more in some locations.  I hope you will be supportive of a community that tries to block someone else's idea of what that community should become if that community doesn't want buildings up to the side walk, multi-story condos/apartments, mixed use zoning, etc.

Every once in a while I feel the need to remind folks here on TN that not everyone wants to turn all of Tulsa County into downtown Manhattan, Boston, Chicago, etc.  (I know that's an exaggeration.)

[Conan71]

   Or...is QT not educated in how to build urban because doing so is rare in Tulsa and the city's zoning/planning does not offer any guidance??

Problem seems to be as we are seeing with the comments on Liz Wright and TMAPC that the developers and large commercial interests seem to be giving all the guidance to TMAPC.  I honestly think QT probably gets "express lane" treatment at the permits department.

[OurTulsa]

I don't see anything wrong with parts of our City taking on a very consistent urban form, including parts of Brookside.  QT can contribute to that form or completely disrupt it.

Unfortunately QT's market is vehicular based.  There isn't enough pedestrian traffic at any QT store to warrant an urban design and there aren't any City codes that require it.  Their philosophy is rooted in our auto-dominated form of transport and they want to make sure that cars (people in them) are reassured that there will always be a place for them to park and access in and out of a site will be relatively easy.  That philosophy conflicts with the generally accepted desire to make Brookside more urban and it conflicts with the historic pattern provided (although pocked nearly to death) in Riverview.  Our City hasn't accepted yet that there needs to be specific codes that support and in fact require an urban form and until that happens QT can continue to thumb their nose at any neighborhood advocate or city employee and enforce their formulaic site design into our urban fabric.

Again, the real pi$$er about QT's Brookside expansion is that both QT and Lee's have the CH zoning classification - meaning they will in all liklihood be able to do whatever they want there.  They won't have to ask the City for a thing (although I heard somewhere they filed and got an alternative compliance on the Landscaping from the Planning Commission - don't know details but big whoop).

[SXSW]

I can see some NIMBY in "your" case too.  "You" don't want a certain style of QT store in Brookside because it doesn't blend in with the desires of the community.  I happen to agree that QT should try to blend in a bit more in some locations.  I hope you will be supportive of a community that tries to block someone else's idea of what that community should become if that community doesn't want buildings up to the side walk, multi-story condos/apartments, mixed use zoning, etc.

Every once in a while I feel the need to remind folks here on TN that not everyone wants to turn all of Tulsa County into downtown Manhattan, Boston, Chicago, etc.  (I know that's an exaggeration.)

I'm just a fan of innovation and good urban design.  I realize QT is a gas station, a business set up around getting cars in and out of pumps as quick and easy as possible.  Yet you can still do that and create a more urban design that blends in with Brookside.  It would be an interesting project for, say, OU architecture students to take on: how to turn an automobile-centric site plan into an urban design.  It's not like Tulsa is alone though.  I went to Chicago recently and noticed QT-like gas stations, drive-thru chain restaurants and banks, etc. sandwiched into their downtown area.  However, it would be cool to see QT try to do an urban store that could be a model for future stores in urban locations, actually creating something innovative in their hometown of Tulsa.  So then if QT expands into downtown or near-downtown locations in bigger cities like Denver, Chicago, St. Louis, Atlanta, etc. they have a more urban model that was first perfected in Tulsa..

Back on topic though, does anyone know where Lee's is moving?  I'm trying to think of any good vacant spots along Brookside and only the Hollywood comes to mind, which I've heard is already taken.  I wonder how long that Blockbuster at 36th will survive?