What are the chances of a Tulsa Beacon retraction?

[Conan71]

Those really are apples and oranges examples.  You are trying to lump in two federally-provided government assistance programs along with an on-going business enterprise (mail service) then compare them to a municipal project designed to generate commerce via:

A 2.5 year construction project (or however long the project was) which helped circulate money into the local and regional economy through productivity, not an entitlement

-and-

it will ostensibly be a lure for tourism dollars for the city as a whole for years to come. 

It's not an equal comparison other than the governemnt takes from one place and spends in another, then, yes, those are all from the same basket of apples.

[Wrinkle]

Correct. $1.5M profit year one when people like Wrinkle said it would operate at a loss every year, especially the first.

You'd be miss-quoting me if you said that.

I don't think anyone ever thought it'd not show a profit the first year, unless, of course, one included the actual cost of the facility in the figures.

If I decide to run a bus line and someone provided me, free of charge, a set of buses, paved roads to everywhere with shelters, insurance and fuel, I too would have no trouble showing a profit. And, I don't even know how to drive a bus.

Now, more to the point, a 0.75% ROI evaporates pretty quickly if the current level of activity cannot be maintained.

In a few years, it'll become just another arena, vying for acts which will then want to go to newer arenas first. But, even if the Eagles played there every Friday night, sooner or later, the market is gone. People have only so many entertainment dollars to spend. And, a large majority of the region cannot even afford to attend at all (Eagles basic ticket was like $93).

Once it's equilibrium is achieved, it's _expected_ this will become a loss leader.  The boost in activity promoting adjacent sales and/or development is the intent. Whether or not it will pay for itself in that regard remains a question. But, you can bet, politics will enter the picture with the current leader weighing how much citizens are willing to allow.

The reality is that few really oppose the arena, by itself. As I've always contended, it's the way it happened, not the result. Of course, it could've been sited better, too. But, that didn't jive with the plan.

[Wrinkle]

All fine and good standards for private enterprise.  Government is not expected to turn a significant profit.  The whole purpose of arenas, ball parks, etc. are to enhance the quality of life and attract tourism dollars to an area, not to be a central cash cow for the city or county.

I agree completely.
The only point I was trying to make was that any 'profit' is ficticious.

In this case, however, I fully expect it to be sold to private interests shortly after Tulsan's finish paying for it. Cash cow to the city, without a vote.

At least it will be sold. Not like the incinerator which was just given away.

[Wrinkle]

So this 1.5 million profit is just from the Arena itself, not increases in sales tax in the area, etc.  I figure the impact of the Arena is a little tough to judge with the economy.

It's not hard to judge at all. Sales Tax revenue has fallen about 10% since the arena opened. Much of that is attributed to the economy in general. But, fact remains, the arena provided no real boost when it began operations.

[MDepr2007]

Correct. $1.5M profit year one when people like Wrinkle said it would operate at a loss every year, especially the first.

No one saw that the Ford Center was going to be closed for concerts during the BOK's first year either. You have to admit that this helped the BOK achieve such a grand 1st year.

[swake]

No one saw that the Ford Center was going to be closed for concerts during the BOK's first year either. You have to admit that this helped the BOK achieve such a grand 1st year.

It's only been closed this summer, for most of the year the Ford Center was open.

[rwarn17588]

To answer the basic question:

No, you won't get a retraction from Charlie Biggs. He's a staunch evangelical who believes he's on the side of God. Therefore, if you're against Biggs, you're against God. This moral certainty is what's stupid and what's scary about the guy.

[MDepr2007]

It's only been closed this summer, for most of the year the Ford Center was open.

Open but to what?
They closed on 4-11-2009 but what concerts have been there since Sept 2008.
Sept. 2008 = Santana
Oct 2008= Neil Diamond
Nov. 2008= Coldplay & Trans-Siberian Orchestra
Dec. 2008 = Cirque du Soleil
Jan. 2009 = none
Feb. 2009 = none
March 2009 = none


Granted that their NBA team has alot to do with it because of their play dates now but no one saw that coming either. If OKC hadn't gotten the NBA team, would the BOK have been a success as it is now?

[MDepr2007]

To answer the basic question:

No, you won't get a retraction from Charlie Biggs. He's a staunch evangelical who believes he's on the side of God. Therefore, if you're against Biggs, you're against God. This moral certainty is what's stupid and what's scary about the guy.

He's more of providing what the readers want to hear than what is true vs the TW providing their beliefs over what is true

[patric]

At least it will be sold. Not like the incinerator which was just given away.

If we really wanted it back, we could do so.
Eminent Domain?

[Wrinkle]

If we really wanted it back, we could do so.
Eminent Domain?

Don't want it back (incinerator). Not only would it cost too much, it's bad for our air. And, poorly sited, immediately west of the core city, along the upstream flow of weather.

That'd be like taking our drinking water just downstream from the sewage plant.

It was a mistake from the outset in almost every way. No reason to repeat history. In fact, our codes and/or Fed regs should shut it down completely. We could bronze it, provide tours as the biggest boondogle in Tulsa history. Of course, that may now be debatable with the addition of the ballpark to the nominees list. But, the ballpark, so far, has only cost 1/3rd that of the incinerator.

[rwarn17588]

If OKC hadn't gotten the NBA team, would the BOK have been a success as it is now?

And if a frog had wings, it wouldn't whomp his butt every time it jumped.

The fact remains that the BOK Center is a success -- period.

[rwarn17588]

He's more of providing what the readers want to hear than what is true vs the TW providing their beliefs over what is true

It sounds like shadows swiped your computer.

[MDepr2007]

And if a frog had wings, it wouldn't whomp his butt every time it jumped.

The fact remains that the BOK Center is a success -- period.

Thanks to those that invested in the NBA and the citizens of OKC.

[Breadburner]

Show me an arena on the scale of the Bok thats failed......