Tulsa will burn trash again

[RecycleMichael]

This is from the tomorrow's local newspaper...

Sunday: Tulsa trash may be burned again

By BRIAN BARBER World Staff Writer
10/10/2009 

Tulsa may soon begin sending most of its residential trash to the burn plant on the west side of the Arkansas River.
The city recently accepted bids for the recovery of energy and recycling material from its waste, and an internal review panel is recommending that a contract be awarded to the Walter B. Hall Resource Recovery Facility.

The city's trash board is expected to hold a special meeting this month to make a final decision. A meeting that was originally set for Friday was cancelled for further legal review of the bids.

While city officials were unavailable to discuss the matter, Public Works Assistant Director Ken Hill said back in March when the bidding documents were being drafted that the city was eager to be back in business with the burn plant, if the numbers worked out.

"It's closer to the center of the city and all of the routes, so it's easier on the trash haulers, with less wear and tear on the trucks and less mileage," he said then. "And of course, it would be an opportunity for the city to be more green, with less trash going to the landfill."

Read the complete story in Sunday's World.

[RecycleMichael]

The public works department and the TARE board did a good job handling this issue. They took their time to prepare the bid packets, met with all the potential bidders to answer any questions, then received excellent bids.

If they award the bid to Covanta (and I believe they will soon), The city should save about well over five dollars per ton on disposal cost for the 150,000 tons they dispose of each year from Tulsa residential routes.

[custosnox]

I saw the headlines on this.  I have to wonder about the impact this will have on air qualities.  I'll admit that I haven't kept up on the issue, but it would seem that this would cause problems.

[RecycleMichael]

There are a few issues, but Tulsa was on the dirty air list before this plant was built and got off the list a few years after it opened. The steam they sell to Sunoco has to be generated somehow and the WTE operation means there are fewer natural gas fired units boiling water.

It is pretty regulated and has to meet very stringent continual testing. One thing I like about it is that it is so regulated. We have no idea what is buried each day at a landfill.

It also doesn't really cause pollution...we do. When we throw away things that don't burn well (like batteries and plastics), there are some emissions. This plant has installed excellent control measures, but there are still traces.

I really follow this plant. I know all the management people and all the regulators. The reports are public record and I make a point to research them.

   

[Conan71]

There are a few issues, but Tulsa was on the dirty air list before this plant was built and got off the list a few years after it opened. The steam they sell to Sunoco has to be generated somehow and the WTE operation means there are fewer natural gas fired units boiling water.

It is pretty regulated and has to meet very stringent continual testing. One thing I like about it is that it is so regulated. We have no idea what is buried each day at a landfill.

It also doesn't really cause pollution...we do. When we throw away things that don't burn well (like batteries and plastics), there are some emissions. This plant has installed excellent control measures, but there are still traces.

I really follow this plant. I know all the management people and all the regulators. The reports are public record and I make a point to research them.

   

Whose trash are they burning now?

[Conan71]

I saw the headlines on this.  I have to wonder about the impact this will have on air qualities.  I'll admit that I haven't kept up on the issue, but it would seem that this would cause problems.

Landfills emit gasses as a by-product of decomposition.  Drive by the landfill on 46th North some time.  Around on the south side of the plant is a flare tower which helps burn off the methane gas generated underneath the landfill.  Quite a common sight at large landfills.  I do know there are projects around the country either being proposed or in use, to put waste gasses like this to use to make energy for other processes.  One of the cooler projects I've gotten to be a part of is a proposed project in North Carolina where they are going to construct an ethanol plant next to a landfill and use the waste methane gas to fire the boilers for the ethanol plant which will pretty much make the ethanol plant self-sustaining and would make it much more carbon-neutral (not that I'm a carbon footprint nut at all, however I do like sustainable technologies and waste heat/fuel re-use). 

I have no idea how much of a difference there is in emissions from land-filling vs. burning, but I do believe they have a pretty good scrubber system on the TTEP here in Tulsa.

[PepePeru]

They don't sort this trash before burning it and you're content with that?

The burden is placed on the citizens, through a monthly fee, through a half-implemented recycling system, where the average citizen has to be actively involved in their own waste management practices.
 
So, what about #5 plastics?
Are batteries allowed in the green bins?

I recycle, my bin's out there 2x a month, but I still see some serious issues with my #5 plastic and other people's batteries getting incinerated.

[sgrizzle]

They don't sort this trash before burning it and you're content with that?

The burden is placed on the citizens, through a monthly fee, through a half-implemented recycling system, where the average citizen has to be actively involved in their own waste management practices.
 
So, what about #5 plastics?
Are batteries allowed in the green bins?

I recycle, my bin's out there 2x a month, but I still see some serious issues with my #5 plastic and other people's batteries getting incinerated.

Yes they don't sort, and I don't know about #5 plastic, but I know the typical types (1 and 2) burn extremely hot and extremely well in the T2E plant so if unsorted plastic gets in, it's actually good for the plant to some degree (pun unintentional). Also, the plant had a magnet in it which pulled out the steel to be sold.

[OpenYourEyesTulsa]

I think the incinerator is better than a landfill but I think they should sort out all recyclables and toxic items.  Also, does the cost of the energy created by this plant get refunded to the tax payer?  I doubt it.  I worry that this incinerator will make the city not encourage recycling because of all the money involved in this plant.

[Conan71]

I think the incinerator is better than a landfill but I think they should sort out all recyclables and toxic items.  Also, does the cost of the energy created by this plant get refunded to the tax payer?  I doubt it.  I worry that this incinerator will make the city not encourage recycling because of all the money involved in this plant.

The only energy created by the plant is steam that is sold to Sun Refinery.  Far as I know, they have never sold any power to the grid and the turbines have only been used for tests.

[Breadburner]

This is good news......

[RecycleMichael]

So, what about #5 plastics?
Are batteries allowed in the green bins?

Burning of any plastic is a concern. Here is an excellent research paper for you to consider...
http://www.trincoll.edu/~cgeiss/ENVS_149/reading%20material/waste/pl_comb.htm

Batteries also do not burn well. That is one of the reasons that The M.e.t. collects all types of batteries at every center seven days a week. We lost $15,000 doing that, but consider every battery that we take out of the burn plant or landfill a victory.

[cannon_fodder]

I'd have to see the nuts and bolts on the financials on this transaction:

As I understand it, they NEED our trash to operate.  And we are not sold on the idea that causing more airborn pollution by burning out trash is a good thing.  Thus, can't we negotiate the price on shipping our trash to them?

If they want to charge us ~$12 a ton (whatever the numbers are) hoping to generate a 20% profit, lets counter at $10 a ton so they can take a 10% profit (or whatever).   It seems like we have the negotiating chip.  The worst possible outcome from our perspective is we negotiate to the point that they walk away and we are left with the status quo (when we aren't convinced we want to change anyway). 

I need to know the nuts and bolts.  How much money are WE going to save (and will I save that money) and have we negotiated to the best of our ability given the options available.  When you have multiple parties that want your business, make them haggle!

I'd also be interested to see other details:   emissions reports for the burner when it was operating.  How many cars worth of pollution does it equate to (a number people can relate to)?  Auxiliary costs of operating it: change in pickup schedule, expense of disposing of the possibly hazardous ash, who has to hold insurance?  What effect does this have to discourage recycling efforts?

[PepePeru]

Burning of any plastic is a concern. Here is an excellent research paper for you to consider...
http://www.trincoll.edu/~cgeiss/ENVS_149/reading%20material/waste/pl_comb.htm

Batteries also do not burn well. That is one of the reasons that The M.e.t. collects all types of batteries at every center seven days a week. We lost $15,000 doing that, but consider every battery that we take out of the burn plant or landfill a victory.

You really think Joe Tulsa is going to care that much about dropping off his batteries at the M.e.t. Center?

Again, the burden on Joe Tulsa to do the right and responsible thing and take an active role in reducing his impact on the environment.   It's seems hard enough to get people to recycle the easy things here, much less remembering to take his batteries to a M.e.t. Center.

It seems like $15,000 is a pretty small price to pay to keep batteries from being burned for energy...especially when they don't burn?  Really, how much energy can you get from burning a battery.

It boggles my mind this goes on.

[RecycleMichael]

So Pepe...what do you do with your #5 plastics and your batteries?