Consumer Wind Turbines?

[Wrinkle]

Think that's probably 400 Watts or 0.4KW per hour.

Besides that, Tulsa area (BA) winds are nowhere near 12mph average windspeed. Maybe 10mph at best.

Bixby's MESONET station reports 7.9 mph windspeed average so far for the month of October 2009. September's average was 6.0 mph, August 6.8 mph, July 6.0 mph, June 7.6 mph, May 7.2 mph, April 10.1 mph, March 11.0 mph, Feb 10.3 mph, Jan 8.4 mph.

The wind power production is going to be waaay less than 2/3rds of the 12 mph rating at even 8 mph averages.

At the above windspeed averages, I'd guess the output would be closer to 100 Watts most times.

[Wrinkle]

From what I've been reading lately, Solar panels should have an installed cost of less than $4/watt these days.

Federal target is $1/watt. Some recent advances are beginning to approach that rate, but are not commercially available yet.

[Conan71]

Think that's probably 400 Watts or 0.4KW per hour.

Besides that, Tulsa area (BA) winds are nowhere near 12mph average windspeed. Maybe 10mph at best.

Bixby's MESONET station reports 7.9 mph windspeed average so far for the month of October 2009. September's average was 6.0 mph, August 6.8 mph, July 6.0 mph, June 7.6 mph, May 7.2 mph, April 10.1 mph, March 11.0 mph, Feb 10.3 mph, Jan 8.4 mph.

The wind power production is going to be waaay less than 2/3rds of the 12 mph rating at even 8 mph averages.

At the above windspeed averages, I'd guess the output would be closer to 100 Watts most times.

If he's set up direct grid though, winds are generally higher between sun up and sun down, when you would have peak loads on the cooling system, you might come close to the 400 watt ouput, though not sure how much that helps offset air conditioning use.  I was going to say if it was 400 KwH, that's a great generator!  July and August which are peak cooling months also have the lowest wind average, but plenty of sun.

I still think cutting usage is his least expensive way to go.

[Wrinkle]

Not sure, but my general observation is that overnight winds tend to be larger than daytime/sunlight hours. I'll have to look at that. Even more pronounced are the winds associated with weather fronts, whenever they come through.

Yeah, 400KwH's would be great. Unfortunatly, the way the incintives are designed, getting either a turbine large enough to do that, or one large enough to actually power your entire place fall outside the size limits allowed (100KW+ size).

That scale of turbine is also where the economics actually start to show.

So, IMO, smaller turbines are not cost beneficial at this point.

If there's a reason, like a lake cabin and a need to charge batteries, standby power or such, then it will work, but is costly, $0.12/KWH or more at best.

btw, a 1.5MW wind turbine operating at 33% capacity factor produces only 500KwHs average.  Ask your neighbors how they feel about a 400' turbine in your back yard.

I should say a 10KW or 20KW turbine could do one entire house. But, the cost would be the factor to consider. They should be less expensive than they're being offered.

[Wrinkle]

A quick search turned up this....

http://www.ecrater.com/product.php?pid=5257485


$14K for a 10KW turbine might work.

Add shipping and installation costs.

You might get 3KW average out this, enough to power a house under the right set of conditions.

These have been priced in the $20-$30K range even recently.

...the 380-volt output seems odd to me.

[Conan71]

The 5kw they show actually seemed pretty realistically priced, but the damn thing is about 20ft or so in diameter.

http://www.ecrater.com/product.php?pid=5267388

Interesting you mentioned the lake house example.  Wind and solar power are quite popular with the sailboat cruising crowd and work quite well as a dual system for keeping the house batteries charged up when you can't plug into shore power for extended periods.

[Mike 01Hawk]

The 400 KWh per month I quoted, which is less than 1/4 of my power consumption in July, came from this link:

http://www.skystreamenergy.com/skystream-info/

"Estimated Energy Production: 400 KWh per month at 12 MPH (5.4 m/s)"

Someone installed one of these units and he was having less than ideal wind, his power per month ranged from like 100-300... OUCH!

Check out this forum for more info:
http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/

And my specific thread where the $90k quote for solar (to power me at peak 2500 KWh month usage):
http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/showthread.php?t=6182

[Conan71]

Sounds like, at this point, home wind generators are an altruistic, not practical or economical way to generate electricity.

Interesting topic anyhow.  A lot better than talking about shrimpers and spooners in politics.

[Wrinkle]

The 400 KWh per month I quoted, which is less than 1/4 of my power consumption in July, came from this link:

http://www.skystreamenergy.com/skystream-info/

"Estimated Energy Production: 400 KWh per month at 12 MPH (5.4 m/s)"

Someone installed one of these units and he was having less than ideal wind, his power per month ranged from like 100-300... OUCH!

Check out this forum for more info:
http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/

And my specific thread where the $90k quote for solar (to power me at peak 2500 KWh month usage):
http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/showthread.php?t=6182

400 KwH per month comes to an annual production of 400 x 12 = 4,800 KwHs. About two months worth. 2/12ths is about a 17% reduction in your current bill/usage. So, if you pay $100/mo now, you can apply $17/mo to amortize your system. $17/mo for 10 years is $2,040.

In reverse, 400KwH/mo is about 13KWHs/Day average. If your load is 5KW, that's less than 3 hours usage per day. 3/12 is 1/4 (12 hours of peak load spread over 24 hours). 13KWHs/Day =~ 0.5KW Turbine output rating average per hour.

That'd get perhaps 25% of your usage, not counting time/demand issues, which could cut this up to around half.

That's why a battery storage system is really needed, so it can meet your demand, rather than trying to use it when it occurs. Plus, batteries provide the amperage needed to start motors (dishwashers, compressors). Big capacitors can also be used for this.

[Wrinkle]

Your 2,500 KWH/mo peak is really peak gross usage, not real peak load. That 2,500 KWH/mo comes down to an average load of about 3.5KW for each hour, over a 24 hour day. I'd guess your real peak load would be around 5.0KW during peak usage (a/c load, lighting load from 6pm-9pm) and drop to under 2.0KW as background during the late night, perhaps.

A complete solar and/or wind system would need to provide this peak load. If we assume a 33% Capacity Factor, your turbine would need to be 15KW in size. A Battery Array would need to be 5KW (with some margin), and your Solar Panels would need be sized to be able to keep 5KW worth of batteries charged to some minimal capacity at all times.

Since Peak Usage occurs during small or no sun hours, the batteries would need to provide all the load during your peak hours. A wind system could be charging them throughout, depending on the current wind conditions. A solar panel has to wait until sunup to begin recharging.

Anyway, if a 5KW Panel system were required, that panel system (at $4/watt) would cost about $20,000 installed. But, you would have to add the battery array cost. Deep Cycle cell batteries like this cost between $200-$400 ea. It takes 4 to produce 48 volts (typical, but 24-volt systems are also common). The Amphour rating of the batteries determines how long they can provide their rated power. So, take that and divide it into how long you need however many watts and get a battery count. This ends up being a dozen or more.

[Wrinkle]

On your forum link, they're using $6-$10/Watt installed cost. That seems way high to me. If history is proving itself here, the industry has added 30% or more to the cost to allow you a 30% tax credit.

But, it's more than 30%. 50% at $6/watt compared to $4/watt.

Look around, there's better deals.

[Mike 01Hawk]

Sounds like you know your stuff Wrinkle, good read on putting some of that stuff into "real world English".

I wish someone could just come to my location and say "if you spend X amount, it'll cover Y of your electricity needs and cost Z per kWhr"

Sure would be nice to not pay $175+ to PSCO every month.  Then again, how many months could $20k or whatever pay for?  Like the guys on the wind/solar forum said: Focus on conservation and efficiency first, and I suppose that's what I'll do.

[Breadburner]

Have you looked at geo-thermal heating and cooling.....Thats where the majority of your energy cost go.....

[Wrinkle]

Have you looked at geo-thermal heating and cooling.....Thats where the majority of your energy cost go.....

I'm convinced this is the way to go, at least in the Tulsa area.

Here's a link to a pretty neat installation and monitoring system.
http://www.ourcoolhouse.com/phase3.htm

The monitor:
http://www.ourcoolhouse.com/monitor/monitor.htm

Adding Solar Water Heating would also prove beneficial, IMO.

[RecycleMichael]

Tulsa Public Schools is getting a new type small wind turbine donated in a couple of weeks at the site of the ropes course.

Installation started today and the grand ribbon cutting ceremony is Thursday at 1pm. The generator is a small vertical axis with a small foot print. It will supply enough energy to power all the lighting in the main entrance and classroom.

This is the brand...http://www.mariahpower.com/