Vision 2025...Part 2?

[Vision 2025]

A little real data never hurts, try this http://riverprojectstulsa.info/index.php/arkansas-river-low-water-dams-and-public-accessrecreational-improvements.

The ST/J Dam location is closer to 104th Street South and it will back (thin) water to 71st plus the area of the casino will be more flooded due to significant mining and fill removed for the Hotel/Casino project, together, some 1,000,000 cubic yards of sand and gravel has been removed from the river.  

Also the $ you list for Zink are just a bit short.

Please note this is not a proposal but a summary of all in costs and requirements based on solid engineering for the dams and conceptual sketches of public use areas as the local entities requested and overall the costs didn't change dramatically but the contingency(s) were reduced with significantly better data to estimate from.

Good luck and good hunting,

Kirby

[swake]

A little real data never hurts, try this http://riverprojectstulsa.info/index.php/arkansas-river-low-water-dams-and-public-accessrecreational-improvements.

The ST/J Dam location is closer to 104th Street South and it will back (thin) water to 71st plus the area of the casino will be more flooded due to significant mining and fill removed for the Hotel/Casino project, together, some 1,000,000 cubic yards of sand and gravel has been removed from the river.  

Also the $ you list for Zink are just a bit short.

Please note this is not a proposal but a summary of all in costs and requirements based on solid engineering for the dams and conceptual sketches of public use areas as the local entities requested and overall the costs didn't change dramatically but the contingency(s) were reduced with significantly better data to estimate from.

Good luck and good hunting,

Kirby

Thanks Kirby,

One question I had was that in the past it was stated that the Sand Springs dam would be a containment pool used to ensure the lower dams were always full, is that still the case? It doesn't indicate it in the PDF from what I can see and the timeline has the Sand Springs dam built well after Jenks and Zink.

[SXSW]

The cities involved will create a River Authority that would call for a vote in those cities only for the taxes to support the dams. The last river vote actually passed in Tulsa and Jenks but failed badly in Owasso and Broken Arrow.  The Creek Nation has also indicated they will support with some funding as well.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/newshomepage3/river-task-force-chairman-suggests-spring-vote-on-dams/article_202ae572-a46e-56b0-b33b-dcb1254417b0.html

Not a county vote.

So Tulsa, Sand Springs, Jenks and Bixby only?  I think if that's the case it could pass but will be close.  All four cities have a lot to gain especially the Jenks/Creek Nation area where the bulk of the "river development" is currently located.  Tulsa also the Gathering Place which will be enhanced by more water.  Sand Springs has a lot of potential but currently no vision.  Same with Bixby.

[swake]

So Tulsa, Sand Springs, Jenks and Bixby only?  I think if that's the case it could pass but will be close.  All four cities have a lot to gain especially the Jenks/Creek Nation area where the bulk of the "river development" is currently located.  Tulsa also the Gathering Place which will be enhanced by more water.  Sand Springs has a lot of potential but currently no vision.  Same with Bixby.

Tulsa could do cool things at 71st and on the west bank at 21st.

[Red Arrow]

Cue Country Joe and the Fish-

Cause its one, two, three, what are we fightin' for?
Don't ask me I don't give a damn 'bout any of them low water dams.

Cause it four, five, six, open up the Keystone gates!
Ain't no time to wonder why, whoopee, them pigs are gonna' fly.

Just having fun. Glad Karen Keith is excited. She deserves it.

Give me a "F".......

[Red Arrow]

So Tulsa, Sand Springs, Jenks and Bixby only?  I think if that's the case it could pass but will be close.  All four cities have a lot to gain especially the Jenks/Creek Nation area where the bulk of the "river development" is currently located.  Tulsa also the Gathering Place which will be enhanced by more water.  Sand Springs has a lot of potential but currently no vision.  Same with Bixby.

I would rather support a usable transit system than water in the river.

The Arkansas is not the Delaware, Mississippi...... river.  I grew up near the Delaware River.  It was subject to tides and there were huge mud flats in the areas just downriver from Phila Int'l Airport in Essington where we took our family boat for the winter and spring maintenance before going back to the Chesapeake Bay for boating season.

[TheArtist]

Anyone know what you need to do to get on a ballot?

 If they are having a city vote this fall I wonder what I would have to do to get a "Tulsa Art Deco Museum" thing put on there?  If I need signatures a great time to do it would be during Mayfest etc. so would have to get moving.

If nobody knows I will wander around city hall next week bugging people or ask Blake.

[Red Arrow]

Anyone know what you need to do to get on a ballot?

 If they are having a city vote this fall I wonder what I would have to do to get a "Tulsa Art Deco Museum" thing put on there?  If I need signatures a great time to do it would be during Mayfest etc. so would have to get moving.

If nobody knows I will wander around city hall next week bugging people or ask Blake.

Good Luck.  Let us know if you get something going.  I don't get to Mayest but I would make a trip downtown to sign a ballot petition to help you out.

[Conan71]

I would rather support a usable transit system than water in the river.

The Arkansas is not the Delaware, Mississippi...... river.  I grew up near the Delaware River.  It was subject to tides and there were huge mud flats in the areas just downriver from Phila Int'l Airport in Essington where we took our family boat for the winter and spring maintenance before going back to the Chesapeake Bay for boating season.

Agreed.  Many people of all age groups I’ve spoken to are puzzled by all this.  I don’t see a viable ROI for this proposal, at least not in my lifetime.

$300+ million.  For water.  Wow.

I can’t even drive to work and back without my car trying to rattle apart.  Dysfunctional and crumbling roads are a real disincentive to new commerce and appealing to the really important job creators.  Our priorities are so screwed up here because Tulsa has always been a “new found wealth” city. You go through a binge phase and you blow through all your surplus on superfluous items which don’t improve livability nor attract new people to the area.

You go through lean times and you dream of the next round of superfluous items which still won’t achieve a notable payback in the tax base.

If the idea is we can now ring the Arkansas with a bunch of new retail development with water in the river and this will be our path to prosperity, this vision is a total FAIL. 

Retail development upon retail development is simply not sustainable.

[Vision 2025]

Thanks Kirby,

One question I had was that in the past it was stated that the Sand Springs dam would be a containment pool used to ensure the lower dams were always full, is that still the case? It doesn't indicate it in the PDF from what I can see and the timeline has the Sand Springs dam built well after Jenks and Zink.

Take a look at slide 7 of the presentation (bottom link on the site I posted above) it's the graph showing the lake elevations comparison.  The inset gives sample release durrations from SS to augment the low flow conditions using the top three feet of the SS lake.  For those of us concerned with the regulatory side and it's implications it is important to realize that the low flow swag between hydro power cycles often gets down in the 100-300 cfs range which is well below the EPA's (theoretical) 7Q2 flow for wasteload allocations.

Kirby

[carltonplace]

So around $5M per mile to spur development along the river in Tulsa around 71st. Yea, that is much more palatable.

[rdj]

At $5MM a mile it is still cheaper than the I-44 widening...

[AquaMan]

At $5MM a mile it is still cheaper than the I-44 widening...

Which had a lot larger tax base paying for it.

[LandArchPoke]

I was wondering, has there been a total $$$ amount released that this package will be worth in just the City of Tulsa? I know Dewey wants $300-350 for police, fire, etc. and then $300 for civic projects - so is the total $0.01 tax for 14 years $600 million?

[heironymouspasparagus]

This is one crazy-a$$ project.

Will be good for all the engineering companies and construction companies involved.  Anyone else??  Not so much...