Vision 2025...Part 2?

[Teatownclown]

Arteest, they love their cars more than their legs, more than sharing a ride, more than waiting for a bus, and more than fighting the extreme elements.

But I like your imagination.

You seem to be a bit negative towards the comprehensive plan and the Gilcrease.

[AquaMan]

The land for the Gilcrease has been bought, cleared and made ready by the county for years. The idea is that it will make the Berryhill area a part of the loop around the city. Convenience. You can drive from Chandler/Berryhill to downtown, northwest or SS pretty easily. Also, the stretch from 23rd and Southwest Blvd to Chandler has become increasingly industrial with lots of tractor trailer traffic that could cut across the Gilcrease exprwy bridge to deliver product easier than negotiating that weird assemblage of roads from the trash burner to the Holly refinery. It would lighten traffic at 23rd and SW blvd as well as on the new bridges being built currently that tie into 244.

Its a promise made that has never seemed to be important enough to finish. Maybe if the planners made it monorail capable....

[TheArtist]

Arteest, they love their cars more than their legs, more than sharing a ride, more than waiting for a bus, and more than fighting the extreme elements.

But I like your imagination.

You seem to be a bit negative towards the comprehensive plan and the Gilcrease.

Arteest, they love their cars more than their legs, more than sharing a ride, more than waiting for a bus, and more than fighting the extreme elements.



So do I for the most part..... IN Tulsa.   Get me, and most other Tulsans into a good quality, pedestrian/transit friendly environment, and they will walk all over the place.  Bet if I offered the random person a free ticket to stay in some European city for a couple of weeks, or NYC, or Disney World, etc. and said "Just a warning though, you won't be able to use a car and will walk a LOT."  I don't doubt one bit that they would still snatch that ticket out of my hand.  

Most people really don't mind walking, they don't like walking in Tulsa because we make it a miserable experience to try and do so.

As for the Comprehensive Plan, I love what we came up with.  What I was pointing out was that during the process they crunched the data and showed 3 different growth scenarios. 1. Doing what we are doing now with some tinkering around the edges.  2. A fairly progressive, urban/pedestrian friendly growth mode.  3. One somewhat inbetween the first two.  Then as one example they showed the population increases we could reasonably expect depending on which growth mode we chose, and even in what parts of the city or not, we could expect to see growth in the different scenarios.  #1 had the slowest population increase for the city.  #2. The largest, and #3 somewhat inbetween.  Everyone involved voted and we chose the #2 scenario.  And thats the scenario we are now trying to decide whether or not we will implement.  And I am all for it being implemented.  The problem is, we seem to be heck bent on moving forward with our usual old plans, or gutting with a thousand cuts plan #2, and thus actually implementing scenario #1.  

 

[erfalf]

As I now understand it, American has been leasing space at the airport all this time. They own nothing. From the city's perspective what safeguards are there to keep American from leaving anytime or if so being compensated in some manner? After all, renters rent because they want the flexibility of not being tied to one place. Why else would AA not want to own something that would be near impossible to sell for fair market value.

I have always felt that cities were caught in between a rock and hard place. Obviously I don't think the city should be offering corporate welfare to anyone. But if they don't, some other city will. Maybe after every city goes bankrupt once that will come to an end.

[nathanm]

It's less egregiously awful when the subsidy is at least not going to support the competitors of existing taxpayers.

[carltonplace]

Arteest, they love their cars more than their legs, more than sharing a ride, more than waiting for a bus, and more than fighting the extreme elements.



So do I for the most part..... IN Tulsa.   Get me, and most other Tulsans into a good quality, pedestrian/transit friendly environment, and they will walk all over the place.  

Heck, just paint some bike lanes on the streets. That's a start.

TTC, you are correct: Tulsans in the boomer range and older love their cars. But the younger demos GenX and Millennials are increasingly attracted to alternate transportation that is not a personal, expensive car.

Based on Driving 15,000 miles annually (Source AAA)
Small Sedan $6,735
Medium Sedan $8,780
Large Sedan $11,324
Sedan Average $8,946
SUV 4WD $11,360
Minivan $9,504

[heironymouspasparagus]

They don't need to be.  Things like food, clothing, and prescription drugs should be exempted from sales tax. 

Oklahoma typically doesn't have the highest tax rate on much of anything but we tax everything in sight.  I have no idea how a populist state got to be where we are. By the way, it was this way l-o-n-g before the Republicans took control of the state government.

And they have been in "control" for a long time and not only has nothing changed for the better - it is arguably getting worse.

[heironymouspasparagus]

TTC, you are correct: Tulsans in the boomer range and older love their cars. But the younger demos GenX and Millennials are increasingly attracted to alternate transportation that is not a personal, expensive car.

Based on Driving 15,000 miles annually (Source AAA)
Small Sedan $6,735
Medium Sedan $8,780
Large Sedan $11,324
Sedan Average $8,946
SUV 4WD $11,360
Minivan $9,504

We also love bicycles - at least many of us that I know.  As well as walking.  At this point, it is too dangerous from where so many of us live to get to the bike paths that it just doesn't work for commuting.  At one time, I lived in BA and did bicycle commute for almost two years (2 to 3 days a week average, depending on weather) to near the fairgrounds - up 145th to 21st and sometimes 11th, then west to Sheridan.  Would not try that now ever.

Proactive creation of infrastructure might surprise you about that.  Plus, it wouldn't hurt for the destination companies to have a shower.... the company I was working for would not support at all.  Offered to pay to install shower myself in an unused corner of warehouse area, and still wouldn't allow, so got sponge bath every morning.

[Red Arrow]

And they have been in "control" for a long time and not only has nothing changed for the better - it is arguably getting worse.

You and I evidently have a different opinion of "long time".  Oklahoma has been a state since 1907.  When I moved here in 1971, voting Republican was merely a prerequisite for complaining about local politics.

[heironymouspasparagus]

You and I evidently have a different opinion of "long time".  Oklahoma has been a state since 1907.  When I moved here in 1971, voting Republican was merely a prerequisite for complaining about local politics.

If no visible progress is made in even just a few decades, then nothing is different.  And still getting worse.


What do you consider a "long time" in politics as relate to public policy improvements?  (Just to get a working time definition between us.)  I will submit 10 years.  If 10 years has passed with no visible/measurable change/improvement, then that is a "long time".  I will take it one step further and say the 20 years constitutes criminal inactivity.

[Markk]

Voting "yes" would be difficult even if the powers that be had identified the intended projects.  Not knowing what the projects are makes this a complete nonstarter.

[JCnOwasso]

Its a promise made that has never seemed to be important enough to finish. Maybe if the planners made it monorail capable....

Well... it did put Ogdenville, Brockway and North Haverbrook on the map!

[Red Arrow]

If no visible progress is made in even just a few decades, then nothing is different.  And still getting worse.
What do you consider a "long time" in politics as relate to public policy improvements?  (Just to get a working time definition between us.)  I will submit 10 years.  If 10 years has passed with no visible/measurable change/improvement, then that is a "long time".  I will take it one step further and say the 20 years constitutes criminal inactivity.

http://www.durantdemocrat.com/view/full_story/17361170/article-Democrats-continue-to-flee-Oklahoma-Legislature?

Democrats essentially controlled Oklahoma politics since statehood, but Republicans snatched control of the House in 2004 and the Senate in 2008. Lerblance's predecessor in the Senate, former state Sen. Gene Stipe, served for more than 50 years in the Legislature from the section of southeast Oklahoma dubbed "Little Dixie," and his name became synonymous with Democratic power.

I cannot think of any new taxes since then.  Rates may have changed.  Cities and counties may have added a sales tax but that is not a new tax for the state.

[Boksooner]

Well... it did put Ogdenville, Brockway and North Haverbrook on the map!

This sounds like more of a Shelbyville idea.

[heironymouspasparagus]

I cannot think of any new taxes since then.  Rates may have changed.  Cities and counties may have added a sales tax but that is not a new tax for the state.

And look where reducing rates is getting us.  No where.  Goes to the lack of visible forward progress I mentioned.

As for Stipe - well I know I have made passing remarks about that clown here before.  He was not the biggest crook we have ever seen, but one with the most visibility.  There are some in south Tulsa and OKC who got "term limited" out a few years ago that worked hand in hand across the aisle since the 60's to keep the money moving in the state.  So they could live in Southern Hills and the kids could drive the Mercedes SL's.  (I think the SL is the two seat sports car versions...??)  Both Republican AND Democrat.

We love our corruption in this state and embrace it as the "manly-man" thing to do.  (County commissioners...)