Vision 2025...Part 2?

[Red Arrow]

We could have that again...and it's not normal to live with streets like this, just go to many other cities.

I won't try to defend Tulsa streets but plenty of other cities have some pretty crappy streets too.

[nathanm]

What was the population 50 years ago?

In 1960, the City of Tulsa was 50 square miles with about 260,000 people living within its borders. In 2011 it was 186.8 square miles with an estimated population of 396,466. Its population density is about 40% of what it used to be. Some wonder why it takes so much more tax money to provide adequate police and fire service, and why we spend far more on roads than we used to but still have crumbling infrastructure. The answer is obvious.

The usual response is, of course, more development. Unfortunately, that development is mostly low density and takes place at the edge of the city, worsening the situation further. The drive to complete the northwest part of the Gilcrease is an extension of the same failed policy. It's great for developers, but it comes at the expense of the city's budget over the long term. Even when steep impact fees are assessed to pay for the initial expansion of services, the cost of maintaining them far exceeds the revenue generated.

People want low taxes and low water bills, but they also want to live on a half acre or more and have a superhighway bounding every square mile of the city to make sure they can get to work in a timely manner. It's an untenable situation. Oddly enough, just riding the bus would help a lot by forestalling the need to widen yet more roads, which not only costs a mint in capex, but also drastically increases maintenance costs. Of course, Tulsa Transit would have to have decent service in the fringes of the city, which it most decidedly does not.

Don't take this to mean that I don't think people should get to live where they please on whatever size plot of land they please. The issue is that in many cases they expect a level of service from the city that exceeds their willingness to pay given their choice to live on the fringe of the city in relatively low density development.

[Conan71]

It was the last time this pic was posted here:

I was actually thinking Sheridan looking north from 61st until I saw your post.  Looking closer, you can definitely see the curve of I-44 looking west down 51st.

[Red Arrow]

In 1960, the City of Tulsa was 50 square miles with about 260,000 people living within its borders. In 2011 it was 186.8 square miles with an estimated population of 396,466. Its population density is about 40% of what it used to be. Some wonder why it takes so much more tax money to provide adequate police and fire service, and why we spend far more on roads than we used to but still have crumbling infrastructure. The answer is obvious.

The usual response is, of course, more development. Unfortunately, that development is mostly low density and takes place at the edge of the city, worsening the situation further. The drive to complete the northwest part of the Gilcrease is an extension of the same failed policy. It's great for developers, but it comes at the expense of the city's budget over the long term. Even when steep impact fees are assessed to pay for the initial expansion of services, the cost of maintaining them far exceeds the revenue generated.

People want low taxes and low water bills, but they also want to live on a half acre or more and have a superhighway bounding every square mile of the city to make sure they can get to work in a timely manner. It's an untenable situation. Oddly enough, just riding the bus would help a lot by forestalling the need to widen yet more roads, which not only costs a mint in capex, but also drastically increases maintenance costs. Of course, Tulsa Transit would have to have decent service in the fringes of the city, which it most decidedly does not.

Don't take this to mean that I don't think people should get to live where they please on whatever size plot of land they please. The issue is that in many cases they expect a level of service from the city that exceeds their willingness to pay given their choice to live on the fringe of the city in relatively low density development.

Unfortunately, housing out here is not being built on 1/2 to 1 acre lots as it used to be developed.  Sanitary sewers have arrived so the lots don't need to be big enough for septic tank systems.  Most new housing is at least 4 houses per acre.  That appears to be about the same density as Mid-town Tulsa, maybe more dense.  Cutting back to 1 house per acre would cut traffic by nearly 75%.  We wouldn't need the superhighways every mile.  Our residential streets are not plowed when it snows.  I might miss a day or two of work once in a while but that's OK.  Our residential streets here in "1 acre lot land" don't have much traffic and don't require much maintenance.  Our street has been repaved (topped, not completely redone) once since we moved here in 1971 and the street is fine.  I don't know how well the more densely populated neighborhood streets around here will hold up.  Where I grew up, sidewalks were maintained by the homeowners so that maintenance should not be a burden on the city.  I know some of you would like to cram sidewalks down my throat but I don't want them and we don't need them in our neighborhood.  At 4 or more houses per acre, yes, you need sidewalks.   We don't have many street lights in our neighborhood.  I would like a few less streetlights so I could see the night sky better.   City water is good because it helps keep fire insurance rates lower than without city water.  One firehouse on 121st just east of Memorial seems to serve Bixby north of the river sufficiently.   The police don't seem to patrol our neighborhood regularly but I seem them out and about on Memorial frequently.   An electric trolley on rails running in the median of Memorial would be nice but I don't expect it.  I am not interested in a bus for myself but it may be useful for many of the people around here.  I know the transit studies have looked at densities and where people go.  One of the possible routes would be from 121st and Memorial west on 121st and then follow Delaware/Riverside and then north on Peoria I think.  I like the idea of the new Reasor's at 111th and Memorial (actually just south of Lowes).  I wish WalMart had stayed at 91st and kept the traffic up there.  I do shop at Lowes but occasionally go to Home Depot at 91st and Delaware to see if they have something different than Lowes carries.  There is a bunch of stuff between 101st and 111th but I know very few of the places.  I stop in Schlotzsky's a few times a year; less now that Jay's Hoagies is open at 91st and Sheridan.   I'm sure I have forgotten a few city services but evidently I don't use or need them.

[guido911]

The west side of Memorial north of 111th is City of Tulsa.  The east side of Memorial south of 101st is Bixby.

Just trying to get some help for some folks that are in real need of public funding projects. Just seeing the hours and days of road deterioration, the lack of decent medical services, the lack of grocery stores and retail shops, and just the absence of needed business screams for county support....My heart breaks for those people that really know suffering, especially as you get closer to 111th & Yale.

[Red Arrow]

My heart breaks for those people that really know suffering, especially as you get closer to 111th & Yale.

What they really need is a 4 lane road (Yale) from the Creek Turnpike all the way south to the river.  Then they need a bridge across the river so they can easily escape to the rural areas of Tulsa County for a break from city life and a breath of fresh air.

[Townsend]

So I learned last night that our little discussions here were very powerful in getting people and the media to discuss the elements of Vision2.  Some were not happy about that.  So much so that the interests that desperately want it passed have members of a PR firm that already are, or will be joining this forum to gently steer the conversation in favor of the initiative.

Welcome.  We look forward to your insights. 

We got another joiner today.  This PR firm isn't very hard working.

[Townsend]

Tulsa Councilors Want Vision 2 Assurances

Tulsa City Councilors are putting together a list of Vision 2 projects to be funded...should the measure pass in November. Council Chair G.T. Bynum says they're asking for advice how to make the list as binding as possible. Since Vision 2 would tie up funding for 17 years, he wants to make sure commitments made now are honored by future elected officials.

He says there is concern future councils or mayors could 'tinker' with the list and make changes not wanted by voters.

http://kwgs.com/post/tulsa-councilors-want-vision-2-assurances

[DTowner]

Well, this doesn't  help the cause of V2 - study says turnpike to finish Gilcrease Expressway not feasible. 


Study calls Gilcrease Expressway as a toll road unfeasible

Construction work continues on the latest leg of the Gilcrease Expressway west of the Tisdale Expressway, south of 36th Street North in Tulsa. MICHAEL WYKE / Tulsa World
1 / 2Next slide
By BRIAN BARBER World Staff Writer & BARBARA HOBEROCK World Capitol Bureau
Published: 9/18/2012  2:24 AM
Last Modified: 9/18/2012  7:28 AM

A study shows completing the Gilcrease Expressway as a stand-alone toll road would not be feasible due to low traffic, but that hasn't dissuaded Tulsa's mayor from seeking Vision2 tax dollars for the project.

"The goals of a turnpike are going to be different than the goals of regular highway infrastructure," Mayoral Chief of Staff Jarred Brejcha said in response to the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority report.

A turnpike is an investment that must be recouped through vehicle tolls, Brejcha said

But the city is looking at a variety of broad issues, from economic development to traffic flow to public safety, in wanting to see the project completed, he said.

Mayor Dewey Bartlett has recommended the City Council consider putting $10 million of Tulsa's potential $158 million in Vision2 quality-of-life funding toward the expressway extension.

The countywide Vision2 package will be on the Nov. 6 ballot.

The Legislature in 2010 authorized the turnpike authority to study the feasibility of making some or all of the unfinished portions of the Gilcrease Expressway into a toll road.

The OTA study, which cost about $1 million and was completed earlier this year, looked at a nearly 12-mile stretch from the L.L. Tisdale Expressway to Interstate 44 near 49th West Avenue.

The study also considered various scenarios, such as completing the project or portions with four or two lanes.

All of the scenarios showed a toll road would not be self-supporting, said turnpike authority Deputy Director Tim Stewart. They would not have enough traffic to generate the net revenue needed to retire the debt.

Council Chairman G.T. Bynum said the findings of the study highlight the concerns he's had all along.

"Federal money has trickled in slowly, but no one else has been willing to commit real resources to get this done," he said.

"Why is that? Why is the Oklahoma Department of Transportation not willing to do it? Why is the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority not willing to do it? What does that say about the viability of the project?"

Bynum and Councilor Blake Ewing also have expressed concerns about the extension leading to urban sprawl. Other councilors have said the project should not be a priority with limited resources.

Councilors beginning Wednesday will hammer out the city's list of Vision2 projects, which they will vote on in the form of a resolution the following week.

The Gilcrease Expressway extension has been on the Tulsa Metro Chamber's regional One Voice legislative agenda for the past several years.

"Having a completed loop around our city would create a more efficient traffic flow, allow us to continue to grow and increase our development opportunities," said Chris Benge, the chamber's senior vice president of government affairs.

Millions of dollars have been spent acquiring rights-of-way and building the highway one portion at a time, he said.

"But ODOT has had a long-standing position of not adding new state-designated highways," Benge said, "so what that has done is limit our resources."

The mayor hopes to convince the council that allocating $10 million toward the extension would be an investment in the future, Brejcha said.

Bartlett, who is in Japan on a business-recruitment trip, is particularly interested in seeing the money put toward a bridge over the Arkansas River that the extension would need.

Still, that's a small fraction of the project's total cost.

Completing the Gilcrease as a four-lane turnpike is an estimated $857 million in 2010 dollars, Stewart said.

A scaled-down version as a two-lane turnpike is $280 million, he said.

A third alternative was a two-lane road from West 21st Street, heading north across the Arkansas River and U.S. 412 ending just north of West Edison Street, according to the study. The cost was $144 million, according to the study.

A fourth alternative was a two-lane road along the same route as the third alternative, but with a simplified interchange on U.S. 412. The cost was $110 million, the study indicated.

Stewart said the figures only include construction and could increase as time passes.

The project always has been one, Brejcha said, that will need multiple funding sources, which is why the Mayor's Office is talking to area municipalities, tribes and other entities to be partners.

The project's feasibility was studied as if it would be a stand-alone turnpike - not sharing in other turnpike revenues.

The OTA cross-pledges its toll revenue so high traffic turnpikes help support toll roads with fewer vehicles. The tolls are used to retire debt used to build and expand the turnpikes, patrol the roadways and perform maintenance.

Just because the OTA's study indicates the Gilcrease Expressway extension would have low traffic as a toll road, that doesn't mean it wouldn't be well traveled as a free highway, Benge pointed out.

"The traffic count would be lower because you would be charging people," he said. "And as a stand-alone project, it would require a much higher toll."

Read more from this Tulsa World article at http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20120918_16_A1_Astudy907963

[Townsend]

All of the scenarios showed a toll road would not be self-supporting, said turnpike authority Deputy Director Tim Stewart. They would not have enough traffic to generate the net revenue needed to retire the debt.

Move some of the current funding from the unused turnpikes in West Oklahoma to this unused turnpike?

[carltonplace]

Move some of the current funding from the unused turnpikes in West Oklahoma to this unused turnpike?

Nope, that road to rural OK is one way.

[RecycleMichael]

The Legislature in 2010 authorized the turnpike authority to study the feasibility of making some or all of the unfinished portions of the Gilcrease Expressway into a toll road. The OTA study, which cost about $1 million and was completed earlier this year, looked at a nearly 12-mile stretch from the L.L. Tisdale Expressway to Interstate 44 near 49th West Avenue.

The study also considered various scenarios, such as completing the project or portions with four or two lanes. All of the scenarios showed a toll road would not be self-supporting, said turnpike authority Deputy Director Tim Stewart. They would not have enough traffic to generate the net revenue needed to retire the debt.

I think you guys are missing the big picture here...

A MILLION DOLLARS to pay for that study!!!!

A report to say there ain't going to be enough cars going on that road to generate $857 million to pay for the road. That is 10,000 cars a day, seven days a week, each paying two dollars, for 117 years.

We spent a million dollars for that. A million dollars.

[Conan71]

I think you guys are missing the big picture here...

A MILLION DOLLARS to pay for that study!!!!

A report to say there ain't going to be enough cars going on that road to generate $857 million to pay for the road. That is 10,000 cars a day, seven days a week, each paying two dollars, for 117 years.

We spent a million dollars for that. A million dollars.

You smelled that smell too?

Definitely a pile!

[Townsend]

I think you guys are missing the big picture here...

A MILLION DOLLARS to pay for that study!!!!

A report to say there ain't going to be enough cars going on that road to generate $857 million to pay for the road. That is 10,000 cars a day, seven days a week, each paying two dollars, for 117 years.

We spent a million dollars for that. A million dollars.

Trickle down economics?

[erfalf]

So I am seeing on the news this morning, that around 3,000 are receiving layoff notices. I'm not sure exactly how V2 is on the ballot, but is this pretty much the nail in the coffin for that one?