Vision 2025...Part 2?

[rdj]

I think you'd run head first into a perception problem with just about any "downtown circulator trolley" plan because it would potentially be used primarily by a buncha drunks (or at least be stuck with that perception/reputation).  I'd rather have the private sector do the downtown trolley stuff -- see Scooby...

Has anyone seen the Cheyenne Bus Co buses?  I know they are doing private parties.  Are they running those as a trolley?  I thought that was their original plan.

[Weatherdemon]

Definitely makes sense on 169.
And maybe (IMHO) on the BA from Broken Arrow east to Memorial?
A commuter train stop or two in Broken Arrow and then another stop at the transit hub off 34th and Memorial-- all would be "park & ride" options before a final stop downtown...

I'm just thinking about the existing train tracks in between the BA (reminds me of the "el" tracks from O'hare in the middle of the expressway in northwest Chicago) and the previous plan floated by Mayor Taylor about a small commuter train that runs back and forth...
http://www.newson6.com/story/7659590/tulsa-transit-considering-a-commuter-train

There is an existing line going from downtown straight through Owasso, into Collinsville, and all the way to Bartlesville as well.

[AquaMan]

Has anyone seen the Cheyenne Bus Co buses?  I know they are doing private parties.  Are they running those as a trolley?  I thought that was their original plan.

They have lots of plans for their doubledeckers which were originally designed for inner city use in England. They are much nicer inside than most trolley type vehicles (air conditioned, sound system, beverage service) and lend themselves to many uses.

RA, I am sure from reading some of the comments about GM buying up trolley lines, locomotive manufacturers and replacement part mfrs, that they also made it much more attractive to municipalities to operate bus systems than maintain aging trolley systems.

[Conan71]

There is an existing line going from downtown straight through Owasso, into Collinsville, and all the way to Bartlesville as well.

Is that the spur east of Oneok Field?

[Townsend]

Vision funds eyed for county

http://www.tulsaworld.com/article.aspx/Vision_funds_eyed_for_county/20130827_11_A1_TulsaC297525

Tulsa County Commissioner Ron Peters said Monday he would consider using surplus Vision 2025 funds to help pay for a new juvenile justice center and four new pods at the Tulsa Jail.

Peters was instrumental in brokering a deal last week between the city and county to avoid placing competing capital packages on the Nov. 12 ballot.

The agreement calls for the city to use 0.1 percent of the former 0.167 Four to Fix the County sales tax to help fund its proposed $918.7 million capital improvements package, leaving the remaining 0.067 percent available to the county for its proposed projects.

As part of the deal, county officials agreed not to place their tax proposal on the ballot until the spring.

County officials estimate the tax would raise approximately $30 million over five years — about $35 million less than the estimated $65 million it would cost to build a new juvenile justice center and the additional jail pods. The cost would go up by $15.75 million if a family court were added to the juvenile justice center.

"I am going to meet with (county officials) and sit down and look at any surplus 2025 funds that might be available for that purpose," Peters said.

"If we could somehow, say, get $15 million-$20 million, that would put us up to $45 million. And Commissioner (Karen) Keith has indicated that she could raise some private money to help finish it off. That would get us close to getting the two projects done."

Peters said last week's deal had created "a new ballgame" for the county. He stressed that talks about how the county should proceed are just beginning and that no decisions have been made.

"We need to get together with everybody and see if we want to stick at 0.067 percent, or do we want to go with more, or do we need more ... (and) whether or not we need to make it permanent or not," Peters said.

Kirby Crowe with Program Management Group, which manages the Vision 2025 program for the county, estimated it could have a surplus of about $60 million. The figure includes the program's $40 million reserve.

However, $45.5 million of that has been promised to the suburban communities as part of the Tulsa County Vision Authority's 2006 decision to approve an additional $45.5 million for the BOK Center and Convention Center renovations.

Complicating the issue, Crowe said, is that any surplus funds must be allocated proportionally among the three active ballot propositions — Economic Development; Health Care, Education and Entertainment; and Community Enrichment — originally approved by voters, meaning all of the money might not be available for criminal justice projects.

The Vision Authority is made up of the three county commissioners, the mayor of Tulsa and three area mayors.

Sheriff Stanley Glanz said Monday he still had not been informed about the details of the city/county deal.

"I don't know all of the details. I don't know what they are," Glanz said. "I know they said, 'Well, we're going to vote on something next spring.' Well, what? And when?

"I wish the county commissioners would go ahead and set a date for the election, and that way if the city is unsuccessful, at least we'll be in a position" to move forward.

Glanz, Keith and local attorney Campbell Cooke sponsored a ballot initiative to place a permanent 0.167 percent sales tax on the Nov. 12 ballot to construct and operate the juvenile justice center and new jail pods.

Approximately 17,500 signatures — 5 percent of registered voters in Tulsa County at the time of the last general election — were needed to put the issue on the ballot. The deadline for submitting the signatures to the Tulsa County Election Board was Friday. Glanz declined Monday to say how many signatures had been collected.

"We got pretty close," he said.

Election Board Secretary Patty Bryant said Monday that the Sheriff's Office has not submitted any signatures.

Peters, who has been in office a week, said there also is a chance that the county will work with its municipalities to come up with a comprehensive public safety proposal that could be funded through a sales tax.

"We have got some time now," Peters said. "We have got to take an approach very similar to what the city took in terms of explaining to our people what we're trying to do. "And that's where I think the discussion comes in about making it a broader public safety issue beyond just the county."

Whatever proposal the county comes up with, it seems likely to get on the ballot. Commissioners Peters and Keith have said previously they would support putting a criminal justice sales tax to a vote of the people. Commissioner Smaligo said Monday he would not because it would result in a tax increase for communities outside of Tulsa.


The projects

Tulsa County officials are working to find funding for two projects they argue are sorely needed: a new juvenile justice center and family courts building to replace the Tulsa County Juvenile Bureau and four new pods at the Tulsa Jail.

The city has been working for years on design and programming for the juvenile justice center and family courts building, with the cost initially estimated to be $60 million to $70 million.

The project was scaled back to its current estimate, which includes $50.1 million for the juvenile justice center and $15.75 million for the family court.

Undersheriff Tim Albin estimates that the four new pods at the jail would cost $12 million to $15 million. The unknown factor is what it will cost to construct the two mental health units that are planned, Albin said.

The undersheriff said the estimates are based on discussions with architectural engineering firms and other law enforcement entities that have similar facilities.

[carltonplace]

Does the juvenile justice center have to be in downtown tulsa? Why can't it be in the county part of the county or in Owasso?

[Weatherdemon]

Is that the spur east of Oneok Field?

Yep.

[swake]

Does the juvenile justice center have to be in downtown tulsa? Why can't it be in the county part of the county or in Owasso?

It will be a big upgrade over what is there now, and since it's next to the jail, Salvation Army, I-244 and the tracks the likelyhood of anything else being developed there is very low.

[Conan71]

It will be a big upgrade over what is there now, and since it's next to the jail, Salvation Army, I-244 and the tracks the likelyhood of anything else being developed there is very low.

Exactly. It's not like the jail, Starvation Army, Day Center, and John 3:16 have exactly stifled growth and renovation north of the tracks.

[Vision 2025]

Does the juvenile justice center have to be in downtown tulsa? Why can't it be in the county part of the county or in Owasso?

Where would you like to put it?  The location requires bus service.
 
The best location is all about transportation, even though Juvenile has its own Court facilities there is still a significant amount of transportation required to and from the Jail for various reasons.  Additionally, close proximity to the jail provides for shared expense reduction with support infrastructure such as laundry and potentially food service.  

[SXSW]

With this tax expiring in 2016 is there any movement to get another proposal on the ballot?  I keep hearing about potential river projects totaling $160 million for the low water dams.  What would you want to see on the ballot, and how can we ensure it passes?

[sgrizzle]

With this tax expiring in 2016 is there any movement to get another proposal on the ballot?  I keep hearing about potential river projects totaling $160 million for the low water dams.  What would you want to see on the ballot, and how can we ensure it passes?

River
2nd&cincinatti -> 3rd&detroit parking garage
River
Brady parking garage
River
Downtown circulator
OKPOP
Reconciliation Center
East-West BRT (11th street maybe?)
Bicycle/pedestrian improvements
At least one New North Tulsa Rec center
East tulsa public plaza (previously proposed)
Tulsa children's museum
Turkey mountain enhancements
River

[SXSW]

I agree the river should be a high priority for this, and hopefully being tied to the county doesn't sink it (again).  So here is my list which includes several items from yours:
1.  New low water dams in Jenks, Sand Springs and improvements to Zink Dam (estimated at $162 million) - part of this was funded in V2025 but not enough to cover all costs
2.  Expansion of River West Festival Park onto the Mid-Con Concrete Plant site with a new larger amphitheater and boathouse for rowing/water activities
3.  Streetcar line connecting Brady, Blue Dome, the CBD/Deco District, the Pearl/Hillcrest and TU via 11th St. and would include major streetscaping improvements.  This would be about 4 miles total.  For comparison OKC's proposed streetcar line is 4.5 miles and will cost $129 million to build and operate.
4.  New downtown park in the Blue Dome (2nd/3rd & Cincinnati/Detroit parking lot) with public parking underneath
5.  County-wide park improvements
6.  Science & Nature Museum downtown (adjacent to Blue Dome park)
7.  County-wide rec centers in suburbs and low-income neighborhoods
8.  Sidewalks/Bike Lanes
9.  Trails along the river and creeks (County Trails Master Plan) - includes river trail connecting Turkey Mtn to Jenks, Creek Tpke to Bixby and Tulsa to Sand Springs
10.  Streetscaping (Cherry St, BA Rose District, Sand Springs, Owasso, Jenks)
11. OKPOP in the Brady with public parking
12.  Public Higher Education (OU, OSU, TCC, NSU)

[Conan71]

Mid-Con will never fly unless it's a private purchase and it's donated or the owners of the dirt there become a good deal less greedy, JMO. 

As of a few years ago, INCOG had a plan for revamping the Riverwest Park.  I don't recall all the details, but Kirby was also at the same meeting I was at the TRC boathouse when this was presented to the Tulsa Rowing Club.

The city also never made good on giving up the M & E center south of the 23rd St. bridge as promised when they bought the borg cube and were going to consolidate all those services at the old downtown airpark, as a compromise.  The M & E center could also provide a lot more recreational space adjacent to the river.

I believe the airpark is now being used by the Osage Tribe and still houses the TPD helicopter patrol and nothing else.  Far cheaper to access than the concrete plant, though I realize it's not contiguous to the RWF park.

[carltonplace]

To sgrizzle's and SXSW's lists I would add additional funds for downtown and near downtown housing development. I feel that this has been one of the greatest drivers of continued core development and residential creates a need for more businesses to serve that population.