Vision 2025...Part 2?

[Conan71]

This is one crazy-a$$ project.

Will be good for all the engineering companies and construction companies involved.  Anyone else??  Not so much...

Can't find too many people who are as enthused as they were about the 2007 river tax slush fund.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Can't find too many people who are as enthused as they were about the 2007 river tax slush fund.

I'm becoming less enthralled daily.  It's just not making a whole lot of sense for that kind of money.  There has to be either a monetary or esthetic payback.  Don't see either one here - not hundreds of millions worth....

Certainly does nothing for flood control, either.

[swake]

The River Task force has pared down the project list for the River to $225 million, no break out on cost by city or what the Creek Nation will contribute.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/downtown/task-force-slims-down-low-water-dam-costs-for-coming/article_a2060aba-ccf1-5b60-9fff-8512e2324d25.html

[TheArtist]

I am still torn a little on the Dams.  On the one hand, as an artist I appreciate the beauty of the way things are now.  I like the dramatic changes of season, from roiling rapids to meandering streams going through wide sand bars, rocky outcroppings and wildflowers, driftwood, etc.  I wish we would embrace what we have.  I blame artists for not showing people the beauty and drama of what we have.  Other places embrace the nature of the place as it is.  Remember Tucson and how their architecture, art, public infrastructure, etc. had design elements reflecting... well, rocks dirt, scrubby brush, lizards etc.  They saw the beauty in it and went with it making their places, home.  However it's probably too late to really make that case, and unfortunately I don't see the people here having that sort of vision.  So if they are going to do the dams and such. Do them right, go all out and make it something that generations will be able to enjoy.  If like someone said you parse out the cost over the miles of the river it will effect, and then you also parse out the costs of having something that can make a difference over generations.  Then what we are doing now is a fair price. It's ok to spend a good chunk now if our children and grandchildren will be able to use this investment.

I also think all the parks should be part of the project.  I think Phil is wrong in that article when he says that the park in Sand Springs will not be a regional attraction.  If all the cities in our area have great amenities near the river, I think that helps us all just as much as Tulsa having good amenities. I think having a diversity of interesting attractions and parks along the river would only be a plus.


What I don't like about the proposals they are putting out there is, if I have this right, they are apparently going to tap into the 2025 money to pay for Police and Fire?  I am not against adding more police and fire but the Vision money should be for Vision items. You use several hundred mill for dams, several hundred mill for police and fire, and you have gutted future vision projects (like a Tulsa Art Deco Museum).  Shouldn't fire and police be part of a 3rd penny tax?  Vision money should mostly go for things that last, or that add "things" to our city which build up our attractions and amenities that generations of people can enjoy and help build value, jobs, tourism, etc. that way.  We use these funds, which were not intended for this use, for police and fire, after its gone, we will then have to lay them off or re-up the tax, again robbing us of Vision money for projects, or go back to another source.  I don't like this and I don't hear much discussion about it.

[AquaMan]

I am still torn a little on the Dams.  On the one hand, as an artist I appreciate the beauty of the way things are now.  I like the dramatic changes of season, from roiling rapids to meandering streams going through wide sand bars, rocky outcroppings and wildflowers, driftwood, etc.  I wish we would embrace what we have.  I blame artists for not showing people the beauty and drama of what we have.  Other places embrace the nature of the place as it is.  Remember Tucson and how their architecture, art, public infrastructure, etc. had design elements reflecting... well, rocks dirt, scrubby brush, lizards etc.  They saw the beauty in it and went with it making their places, home.  However it's probably too late to really make that case, and unfortunately I don't see the people here having that sort of vision. 

Its never too late to create a vision, or correct the vision you have. I am glad to see you understand and appreciate the beauty of nature though I am dismayed that you are so easily persuaded to negate it for someone else's vision of what it ought to look like.

Mostly I am surprised at the gullibility of people who actually think this is a project that will have widespread return to the community either in tax dollars, quality of life or potential retail use. That seems to me to be a stretch. Its returns are specious and narrow in scope. If this were a business proposition by a group of entrepreneurs, what do you think would be financiers or investor responses?  //

[sgrizzle]

We can just sit here and ignore our river, fill the banks with truck lots, refineries and casinos while OKC builds two rivers from scratch with boathouses, tourist attractions and everything that goes with it.

Do I think it's worth $225Million? maybe not. I think it was worth half that to do it 20 years ago when this should have been done, but definitely not worth the $500M it will take to do it 20 years from now.

[swake]

We can just sit here and ignore our river, fill the banks with truck lots, refineries and casinos while OKC builds two rivers from scratch with boathouses, tourist attractions and everything that goes with it.

Do I think it's worth $225Million? maybe not. I think it was worth half that to do it 20 years ago when this should have been done, but definitely not worth the $500M it will take to do it 20 years from now.

I like that the Sand Springs dam will even the flow out during the day for the whole river so it's more natural than the on/off periods created by power generation at Keystone.

This also could be a good opportunity to move the outlet mall to the west bank like was envisioned years ago. Save Turkey Mountain and keep development in the core where new infrastructure isn't needed. 

[AquaMan]

We can just sit here and ignore our river, fill the banks with truck lots, refineries and casinos while OKC builds two rivers from scratch with boathouses, tourist attractions and everything that goes with it.

Do I think it's worth $225Million? maybe not. I think it was worth half that to do it 20 years ago when this should have been done, but definitely not worth the $500M it will take to do it 20 years from now.

The banks of the Arkansas are already filled with trucking, concrete operations, refineries, sewage treatment plants and such. They aren't going anywhere either without an exhorbitant price and they represent real taxpaying jobs.

Make note of OKC's attractions. I do each week when I pass over the bridges. Occasional rowing club activities, stalled progress on the water park and I never have seen the "ferry". Yes, the rocks and red dirt are covered with water, but otherwise not such a great tourist attraction. if there are hard figures showing its financial return I haven't seen them. Seems they would have been used to justify our investment. I strongly support repairing or remodeling the existing dam here in Tulsa. That at least keeps one historical vision intact.

     *What most visitors and Tulsans see now when crossing I-44 at Riverside.......will look and smell, exactly the same. Rocks, debris, sand bars, shopping carts, pipes etc.

     *Ask why if the Sand Springs dam is so important to the outcome, it is not the first dam scheduled? Why is it the Jenks dam? Because when the overruns kill the plan, or the money dries up, at least the Creeks will have their pet project completed.

Yes, being ignored hurts the river. There is no association that has taken on the task to clean up the century of abuse we have given it. We tore concrete bridges down and left the debris, we have oilfield remnants, acres of manmade trash, and littered banks. The insistence that the only vision for the river has to include multiple, expensive, ecologically impactful dams that just cover it all up may be just as damaging.

[Conan71]

There's more rowing activity than anyone would realize.  Many rowers are out in the pre-dawn hour(s).  Not much in the middle of the day. 

Being designated as a U.S. Olympic training center is a nice feather in the cap, but I agree, not sure what the net ROI is other than livability points.

[Stanley1]

We can just sit here and ignore our river, fill the banks with truck lots, refineries and casinos while OKC builds two rivers from scratch with boathouses, tourist attractions and everything that goes with it.

Do I think it's worth $225Million? maybe not. I think it was worth half that to do it 20 years ago when this should have been done, but definitely not worth the $500M it will take to do it 20 years from now.

This is pretty much how I feel.

I think this needs to get done.  It can be done in stages.

[Red Arrow]

We can just sit here and ignore our river, fill the banks with truck lots, refineries and casinos while OKC builds two rivers from scratch with boathouses, tourist attractions and everything that goes with it.

Do I think it's worth $225Million? maybe not. I think it was worth half that to do it 20 years ago when this should have been done, but definitely not worth the $500M it will take to do it 20 years from now.

Using the inflation calculator, it would have been $146M 20 years ago.  It would have cost more than it was worth then too.
http://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm

[rebound]

We can just sit here and ignore our river, fill the banks with truck lots, refineries and casinos while OKC builds two rivers from scratch with boathouses, tourist attractions and everything that goes with it.

Do I think it's worth $225Million? maybe not. I think it was worth half that to do it 20 years ago when this should have been done, but definitely not worth the $500M it will take to do it 20 years from now.

+1  (or 2 or 3, as I am late to comment...)  For those looking for a hard-dollar ROI, it's not going to happen.  Probably didn't happen for OKC, either, but they have their dams and water and we don't.  Was it justified?  Who knows, but I bet they'd rather have it than not.  If we try to put an ROI on it, nothing along the river (the actual river) will ever get done.  Find a number that we can live with and get something done.  The longer we wait, the further behind we get...

[sgrizzle]

+1  (or 2 or 3, as I am late to comment...)  For those looking for a hard-dollar ROI, it's not going to happen.  Probably didn't happen for OKC, either, but they have their dams and water and we don't.  Was it justified?  Who knows, but I bet they'd rather have it than not.  If we try to put an ROI on it, nothing along the river (the actual river) will ever get done.  Find a number that we can live with and get something done.  The longer we wait, the further behind we get...

Other things the ROI numbers don't work too well on:

BOK Center
ONEOK Field
Bike Lanes
Sidewalks
Turkey Mountain
River Parks
Healthcare Reform

[AquaMan]

That's cute. Nor does ROI work on growing grass, sweeping your walk and tearing down recreation centers. Not really germane. But hey, hard ROI? Heck, I'd settle for a whisper of a return.

Why subject it to the same scrutiny that businessmen use to justify investment and employment? You seriously think the promoters/developers/politicians/businessmen involved with planning the BOK, ONEOAK, River Parks and HealthCare reform didn't consider ROI? They just loved the idea of the way those things looked and sounded? That is too naïve for you guys. You're making me feel like a libertarian talking to a pointy headed liberal. Shame on you for that!

If you love this plan so much, just show me where $225-300 million gets an East Tulsan, a north Tulsan, a West Tulsan, a Sandite or a non Native American who lives north of 71st street a return at all in the foreseeable future. Should be easy but its not. Tourism? Retail taxes? Increased ad valorem? Or is it the catchall phrase, "Quality of Life"?

[TeeDub]

Other things the ROI numbers don't work too well on:

BOK Center
ONEOK Field
Bike Lanes
Sidewalks
Turkey Mountain
River Parks
Healthcare Reform

but but but

BOK Center
"The venue continues to set records, win awards and provide a return on the investment in the form of increased local revenues and a growing reserve fund dedicated to future improvements."
http://vision2025.info/index.php/archives/390