Oklahoma City voters say ‘yes’ to MAPS 3 proposal

[FOTD]

This comparing the State Capitol to Tulsa gets old.

Many of us take pride in not being like OKshitty.

Tulsa is lucky not to have two major transportation lines running through it.

OKshitty is quantity driven. Let's continue to make Tulsa quality driven.

Oh. And good luck to Devon stock holders.

[Conan71]

I've lived in Tulsa or a Tulsa suburb since 1969.  Right now, the only thing Tulsa has going for it that is better than OKC is the natural setting of the city.  Otherwise, it's positively stagnant. 

Oklahoma City's leaders and it's citizens have shown foresite, vision and the willingess to invest in improving their city with the passage of MAPS, MAPS for Kids, the MAPS improvements to the Ford Center and MAPS 3.  Tulsa has been burdened by poor leadership and and leaders with no vision.   

How many years will it be before Tulsa is officially a suburb of Broken Arrow, Jenks and Owasso?

Really?? Stagnant??  Look how many things have changed and improved just in the last 5-10 years here.  Go downtown much?  Drive Brookside? Notice all the improvements along Riverside from 11th St. on south? Improvements to our Fairgrounds?

Generalize much?

[swake]

Actually Devon is forgoing the $195 million TIF funds and returning them to the City for downtown improvements including $45 million for upgrades to the Myriad Gardens.  They've advanced the City $90 million to get the projects started now.

How magnanimous of them to want to dictate that the property tax they would pay on their new building be directed to help the value of their vanity project building instead of going to schools and kids. 

[swake]

I thought Maps had a great plan, good project, very focused on downtown. And it was good that it's second phase was directed at schools, the schools in OKC were in a shameful state of repair and really needed the money.

Vision 2025 was a combo of the Maps and Maps for kids plans. It did schools (focusing on colleges which is where Tulsa's greater need was/is) and projects all in the same plan, but, the locations of the projects were less focused which was a mistake. The projects outside of the core scattered around may each have been a worthwhile project, but because of a lack of synergy are never going to do much for economic development, which was kind of the point.

The Boeing deal was also a mistake, it was a very long shot and took the place of the ballpark and downtown library and lessened the amount of grant money for downtown housing and development and the river. Vision 2025 did some really good things too, relatively cheap and impactful upgrades to the convention center, the downtown housing fund, making the arena be more than just a throwaway building, but some pointless things too like widening streets in Broken Arrow.

But Maps3 is a different beast entirely. It takes the worst parts and mistakes of all the former plans and packages them up with just one single worthwhile project. The biggest project is a new convention center but they shorted the money for it and will either end up with a new center even smaller than Tulsa's newly redone center or one that's big and crappy, knowing Oklahoma City they will go big and ugly.  

That paired with a new sterile park will create an area next to downtown called "core to shore", a massive mixed used retail, office and residential site that when combined with the new Devon tower will add millions of square feet of unneeded office and retail space in the center of Oklahoma City and will absolutely kill downtown and Bricktown.  These projects will compete with downtown and Bricktown and suck all the momentum that Maps I created out of them.

Then there is money for pointless projects like "Senior Aquatics Centers" or some such fluff, and citywide sidewalks. And more money for the Oklahoma River, which is the kind of sterile, awful park experience you have to expect will be created next the new ugly convention center.

But, they are building a trolley line, which I really wish we would do.

In some ways Maps3 seems like they are trying to catch up with what we have already done with expanding our convention center, the redone Riverparks but they missed the best parts of 2025. Like the downtown housing fund. If they had spent only $150 million expanding redoing their current convention center and then set up a $150 million housing and retail development fund for their existing downtown and Bricktown, now that would have been something. As it is, they have passed a very bad plan.

[MsProudSooner]

Really?? Stagnant??  Look how many things have changed and improved just in the last 5-10 years here.  Go downtown much?  Drive Brookside? Notice all the improvements along Riverside from 11th St. on south? Improvements to our Fairgrounds?

Generalize much?

I go downtown and love what is finally happening down there.  I think the BOK Center is the greatest thing to happen in Tulsa in decades.  I never thought I'd be able to go see Paul McCartney in concert in the city where I live, but I did!  All the other things you mention are good, but they are also long overdue.  The things that have been done are great, but it is ludicrous for someone from Tulsa to riducle OKC for all t he timprovements they have made since 1995.  Tulsa isn't in the position to riducule anyone.

[Conan71]

I go downtown and love what is finally happening down there.  I think the BOK Center is the greatest thing to happen in Tulsa in decades.  I never thought I'd be able to go see Paul McCartney in concert in the city where I live, but I did!  All the other things you mention are good, but they are also long overdue.  The things that have been done are great, but it is ludicrous for someone from Tulsa to riducle OKC for all t he timprovements they have made since 1995.  Tulsa isn't in the position to riducule anyone.

Oh, okay, that wasn't the original point you expressed.  I simply couldn't believe anyone could say we've been stagnant.  All you have to do is read the papers and see how up in arms everyone is over the ballpark to figure that out. 

OKC has done some great stuff.  I'm personally a fan of their river (I'm a rower, so I probably see it as less bland than Swake since it's become one of the best rowing venues in the U.S.) and Bricktown.  I also do admire that OKC hasn't turned many of it's old architectural gems into surface parking.  That's one area I do envy OKC.

[swake]

Oh, okay, that wasn't the original point you expressed.  I simply couldn't believe anyone could say we've been stagnant.  All you have to do is read the papers and see how up in arms everyone is over the ballpark to figure that out. 

OKC has done some great stuff.  I'm personally a fan of their river (I'm a rower, so I probably see it as less bland than Swake since it's become one of the best rowing venues in the U.S.) and Bricktown.  I also do admire that OKC hasn't turned many of it's old architectural gems into surface parking.  That's one area I do envy OKC.

OKC hasn't?

We didn't level nearly as much as they did. Where do you think the land for all these new developments came from?

Google IM Pei and Oklahoma City to see what happened there.

[Conan71]

OKC hasn't?

We didn't level nearly as much as they did. Where do you think the land for all these new developments came from?

Google IM Pei and Oklahoma City to see what happened there.

Swake, I've never approached it from a statistical viewpoint, I simply don't see acres upon acres of asphalt parking lots in downtown OKC like we've got pocked all over downtown Tulsa.  It'd be one thing if we actually developed something on our lots and did more parking garages incorporated in their design.  Tulsa has got to be the surface parking crapital of the world.

[Laramie]

Swake,

A lots of foresight was put into development of MAPS 3.

Now that MAPS 3 has passed; OKC already is toying around with an NFL-style retractable roof stadium for MAPS 4 extension in 2017, our population should exceed --700,000 (City); 1.6 million (Metro) with 3.25 million in a 100-mile radius approaching 2020.  We will be ready for the state's first Major League Football franchise.

As OKC continues its growth--Tulsa will grow also; there will be many companies that will find Tulsa equally attractive as OKC just being 90-miles away.

High speed rail will really help both cities connect.

I think the thing that has caused Tulsa the most problems are its aggressive-growth surburbs--Jenks, Broken Arrow, Bixby and Sand Springs are developing.  Whereas--Norman, Edmond, Guthrie,  Midwest City-Del City,  Moore and Mustang want to remain bedroom communities to Oklahoma City.

I've lived in Tulsa before--17th & Peoria--near Tulsa Rose Garden and the Jewish Synagogue.  Tulsa is beautiful and clean.  I'm surprised that it hasn't boom-grown internally.

Oklahoma City's 650 square miles does afford it opportunities to grow and develop.

[OurTulsa]

Swake,

A lots of foresight was put into development of MAPS 3.

Now that MAPS 3 has passed; OKC already is toying around with an NFL-style retractable roof stadium for MAPS 4 extension in 2017, our population should exceed --700,000 (City); 1.6 million (Metro) with 3.25 million in a 100-mile radius approaching 2020.  We will be ready for the state's first Major League Football franchise.

As OKC continues its growth--Tulsa will grow also; there will be many companies that will find Tulsa equally attractive as OKC just being 90-miles away.

High speed rail will really help both cities connect.

I think the thing that has caused Tulsa the most problems are its aggressive-growth surburbs--Jenks, Broken Arrow, Bixby and Sand Springs are developing.  Whereas--Norman, Edmond, Guthrie,  Midwest City-Del City,  Moore and Mustang want to remain bedroom communities to Oklahoma City.

I've lived in Tulsa before--17th & Peoria--near Tulsa Rose Garden and the Jewish Synagogue.  Tulsa is beautiful and clean.  I'm surprised that it hasn't boom-grown internally.

Oklahoma City's 650 square miles does afford it opportunities to grow and develop.

Not so sure about your assertions related to the OKC burbs.  Norman, Edmond, Guthrie (not really a burb) and Midwest City have there own plans that don't call for sitting back and rely on the scraps falling from OKC's festival. 

Norman a suburb of OKC?  Not really.

[waterboy]

 

Not so sure about your assertions related to the OKC burbs.  Norman, Edmond, Guthrie (not really a burb) and Midwest City have there own plans that don't call for sitting back and rely on the scraps falling from OKC's festival. 

Norman a suburb of OKC?  Not really.

Careful, OT. I got skewered for expressing those beliefs the last time we had our OKC thread. Many people think its one long contiguous suburb around the city, especially to the south.

[OKC_Shane]

Careful, OT. I got skewered for expressing those beliefs the last time we had our OKC thread. Many people think its one long contiguous suburb around the city, especially to the south.

Living in central Norman, I'd definitely agree with the idea that Norman is not primarily a suburb of OKC. Anyone that thinks Norman is just suburb is incorrect- It has its own strong economy, character, and one of the best walkable/bikeable urban environments in the state stretching from downtown Norman to the OU campus. But there is a strong commuter suburb quality along I-35 in Norman and according to city-data.com, only 55% of the working population lives and works within the city.

But I would have to say I have had a similar perception to Laramie- that Tulsa's suburbs have stolen/tried to steal a lot of Tulsa's thunder in recent years. I was afraid when it looked like Drillers might follow the aquarium to Jenks, but Tulsa has gained some power and respect throughout its metro with the opening of BOK Center and construction of the ballpark. These attractions will hopefully help re-expose the Greater Tulsa to Tulsa proper and put the burbs back in their place.

Swake, I also agree that it would have been nice to see a DT housing fund like what was done in V2025. We have a lot of residential developments waiting for financing right now. I really wish we would have stolen that idea for MAPS 3. But the convention center was a politically important component and apparently there is a lot of demand for larger spaces, and there is no room to expand our current center (there are no parking lots or empty lots for several blocks in either direction). The low, low price of $280 million may be cheap compared to recently built convention centers around the country, but is not as cheap as it seems. There is the fact that MAPS projects are paid for in cash and therefore save tens of millions on interest.

I guess I kind of see your point that the slate of MAPS 3 projects are not perfect, swake, but I do not agree that they will undo or kill the progress that has been made in OKC since MAPS 1. The modern streetcar will have the greatest impact and hopefully encourage even more infill development in all of the downtown neighborhoods.

[USRufnex]

I thought Maps had a great plan, good project, very focused on downtown. And it was good that it's second phase was directed at schools, the schools in OKC were in a shameful state of repair and really needed the money.

Vision 2025 was a combo of the Maps and Maps for kids plans. It did schools (focusing on colleges which is where Tulsa's greater need was/is) and projects all in the same plan, but, the locations of the projects were less focused which was a mistake. The projects outside of the core scattered around may each have been a worthwhile project, but because of a lack of synergy are never going to do much for economic development, which was kind of the point.

The Boeing deal was also a mistake, it was a very long shot and took the place of the ballpark and downtown library and lessened the amount of grant money for downtown housing and development and the river. Vision 2025 did some really good things too, relatively cheap and impactful upgrades to the convention center, the downtown housing fund, making the arena be more than just a throwaway building, but some pointless things too like widening streets in Broken Arrow.

But Maps3 is a different beast entirely. It takes the worst parts and mistakes of all the former plans and packages them up with just one single worthwhile project. The biggest project is a new convention center but they shorted the money for it and will either end up with a new center even smaller than Tulsa's newly redone center or one that's big and crappy, knowing Oklahoma City they will go big and ugly.  

That paired with a new sterile park will create an area next to downtown called "core to shore", a massive mixed used retail, office and residential site that when combined with the new Devon tower will add millions of square feet of unneeded office and retail space in the center of Oklahoma City and will absolutely kill downtown and Bricktown.  These projects will compete with downtown and Bricktown and suck all the momentum that Maps I created out of them.

Then there is money for pointless projects like "Senior Aquatics Centers" or some such fluff, and citywide sidewalks. And more money for the Oklahoma River, which is the kind of sterile, awful park experience you have to expect will be created next the new ugly convention center.

But, they are building a trolley line, which I really wish we would do.

In some ways Maps3 seems like they are trying to catch up with what we have already done with expanding our convention center, the redone Riverparks but they missed the best parts of 2025. Like the downtown housing fund. If they had spent only $150 million expanding redoing their current convention center and then set up a $150 million housing and retail development fund for their existing downtown and Bricktown, now that would have been something. As it is, they have passed a very bad plan.

Umm.  Tulsa isn't OKC, OKC isn't Tulsa, and we shouldn't re-write history using 20/20 hindsight, wishful thinking and morphing previous plans or by being condescending about what OKC just passed......... that's my stream of consciousness after I read this post, Mr. Swake.

I like this perspective from former OKC Mayor Ron Norick
http://www.okgazette.com/p/12776/a/4385/Default.aspx?ReturnUrl=LwBEAGUAZgBhAHUAbAB0AC4AYQBzAHAAeAAslashAHAAPQAxADIANwAyADkA

author=swake    The Boeing deal was also a mistake, it was a very long shot and took the place of the ballpark and downtown library and lessened the amount of grant money for downtown housing and development and the river. Vision 2025 did some really good things too, relatively cheap and impactful upgrades to the convention center, the downtown housing fund, making the arena be more than just a throwaway building, but some pointless things too like widening streets in Broken Arrow.

I wouldn't be a proper "soccer activist" if I failed to point out some inaccuracies..... to my knowledge, a new ballpark was never seriously proposed to be a part of Vision2025, even though a new ballpark was included in Conventions, Sports and Leisure's 2003 feasability study.  Former Mayor LaFortune made that point clear in 2002-2003.  IMO, the Major League Soccer stadium that was going to be located off Brady was what was taken off the table; yet with a less "iconic" arena, we could've had both.... I assume the political reason at the time was that a soccer specific stadium financed primarily with sales taxes could have been used as a lightning rod by the opposition which could have affected passing the entire project.

http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=99933

I believe that the LaFortune people understood that appealing to countywide voting blocs would be critical in passing a countywide initiative.  So, "widening streets in BA" or a new public pool may not mean much to downtown-only types, but it DOES mean alot to the people who live in those areas.  There's a great deal of distrust of downtown-only projects. and alot of it can be traced back for decades.... the most recent examples being the River Tax, "It's Tulsa Time" and the half-baked list of projects offered in the "Tulsa Project" which included a downtown natatorium and 5k-seat soccer/track&field venue along with the arena...

Tulsa Project a No-Brainer for Fans
By John Klein
Published: 10/13/1997
http://www.tulsaworld.com/sportsextra/article.aspx?subjectid=29&articleid=19971012_Sp_b1klein&archive=yes

"IF YOU like sports, and we assume you do since you're reading this, the Tulsa Project is a no-brainer.
You go cast your yes vote and we'll see you downtown at the NCAA Basketball Tournament. We'll be seeing you at Big 12 Conference and WAC championship events. You'll be checking out Olympic swimmers, divers, gymnasts and wrestlers.

You'll see exhibition NBA and NHL games. You will see, if Oklahoma City lands an NHL franchise, real NHL games.

The Tulsa Oilers, one of the top minor hockey franchises in the country, will finally get a regulation size rink and enough seats for every game.

Sometime in the future, Major League Soccer will be back in Tulsa.

How do we know this? It's our business to know these things. It's our business to talk with the people who make decisions in sports.

If anyone tries to tell you differently, ask them if they've ever spoken with Big 12 Commissioner Steve Hatchell, WAC Commissioner Karl Benson or Bill Hancock, director of the NCAA Tournament. Ask them if they've talked to folks with MLS.

All of them believe Tulsa is a terrific venue for sports events. They aren't interested right now for obvious reasons -- there's no place to play.

However, if you build it they will come. Don't let any of the opponents of the project tell you differently. We know for a fact."

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I submit to you that Boeing wasn't a "mistake."  It was likely the most popular of the four proposals for Vision 2025..... if the "Tulsa Project" and "It's Tulsa Time" couldn't pass but giving tax handouts to Whirlpool can pass, then the Boeing bid made complete political sense.... even if it didn't bring those jobs to Tulsa in the end.

I remember Oklahoma City voters being no different from Tulsa voters back in the '80s...... think the public outcry against the downtown ballpark is bad?..... it pales in comparison to the pi$$ing and moaning over the Myriad Gardens back when I was at OCU.... it was a "giant syringe" and it was "insane to put a big class tube in a hot southwestern city."

I seem to remember somebody from OKC describing a change of demographics that helped propel the MAPS projects; he seemed to think that enough old farts left town and enough anti-taxers moved away from the "big city" to places like Harrah and Yukon.....

These days, I think the problems with these kinds of projects for Tulsa is that Tulsans really are for smaller government; OKCers are for smaller federal government.

Viva la difference!

[okcpulse]

Norman a suburb of OKC?  Not really.

Actually, it is.  Moore is just sandwiched between OKC and Norman.

[okcpulse]

Devon is no sure bet....but they have a solid fix on how to enhance their property investments on the public dole...

Excuse me?  Devon is no sure bet?  Construction has already started, and the building is already paid for.   

And what gives you the idea that Devon is building on the public dole?  It is all privately funded.  Not sure what gave you that idea.