2009: The Year in Hate

[waterboy]

Pretty amazing we expect to strip away natural-born citizens rights when they commit a crime, yet we want to give carte-blanche to people who were breaking the law the moment they entered the country.  What amazing logic!

If you insist. Don't include me though in your "we". If by Carte Blanche you mean a credit card then, yes, our banks are up for that.

[waterboy]

So what do we do about the problem?

This country, under numerous presidents of differing political parties, has given tacit approval to illegal immigration from Mexico for decades. The genie has been long out of the bottle, and can't be put back in.

By conservative counts, there are 10 million here. What do you do about it? Fines? Mass deportations? What's the less-awful answer?

Finally! The question begs and the lame keep crying, "are there no jails? are there no INS agents? can't they read our volumes of law and keep up?"

I am amazed at the reactionary nature of the replies here when I spent late nite hours trying to come up with something (flawed) but creative. There has to be a better way than just lock em up or build a wall.

[Conan71]

Perhaps you misunderstood.  She did not enter this country illegally.  She came over legally in 1998 when her country and her home were destroyed by Hurricane Mitch.  She came to the US with absolutely nothing, and began working right away making money the only way she could--cleaning houses.  Yes, by all means, ignorance of the law is no excuse, and I suppose her first priority should have been to head down to the local law library and read up on immigration laws.  Unfortunately, she was just too busy finding a place to live and feeding her family.  And I guess it's her own fault for dragging her kids to the US with her.  She should have left them in Hounduras to starve, or demanded that her 18 year old son, who was still in high school, come up with his own $2000.

While the principal of "ignorance of the law" applies to everyone, citizens at least are granted the right to an attorney.  Technically, my friend was not illegal, because Hondurans that came in 1998 were granted Temporary Protected Status (which was extended several times), and had the right to remain in the US.  It was simply a matter of filling out the right paper work--if she could have afforded an attorney, she would have known that.

I didn't misunderstand a thing.  I never said she entered the country illegally.

There is no requirement to employ an attorney for $2000 to file for an H2-B visa or US worker visa, unless you over-stay your original visa, then yes, probably a very good idea to hire one.  Plan ahead, follow directions, and these things don't happen.  There are social agencies within the Tulsa area which will help with translations if it's a language barrier, and I do believe some groups like Catholic Charities do have advocates for immigrants. 

Here's a good place to start, if anyone is curious about the process and the fees.  No it's not free to get visas or citizenship but an attorney is not absolutely necessary.

http://travel.state.gov/visa/immigrants/immigrants_1340.html

http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.eb1d4c2a3e5b9ac89243c6a7543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=dd346d26d17df110VgnVCM1000004718190aRCRD&vgnextchannel=dd346d26d17df110VgnVCM1000004718190aRCRD

[Conan71]

Finally! The question begs and the lame keep crying, "are there no jails? are there no INS agents? can't they read our volumes of law and keep up?"

I am amazed at the reactionary nature of the replies here when I spent late nite hours trying to come up with something (flawed) but creative. There has to be a better way than just lock em up or build a wall.

You aren't tipping the cooking sherry, are you?

[waterboy]

When I was a kid I used to see public service spots on the TV reminding (legal) aliens to register at the Post Office each January.  Maybe we need to go back to something as simple as that.  If there are other requirements for an individual, the requirements should show up at that time.  As far as I know, no lawyers required.

Good idea. Who said nothing good ever comes out of the suburbs?

[Red Arrow]

Some of them are quite dumbass while others seem to fit right in hereabouts.

I think you have left yourself kind of open to attack on that one.

[waterboy]

Probably. Need better brand of Sherry I guess. Anyway, the general population is pretty dumbass in America. We're pretty smart about music and celebrity but not the law, math, science and history. Some immigrants are dumb too. My point is that we have a group of pretty well educated, well paid posters who cross culturalize. You'll notice only you and I offered anything new. I was asked to offer a solution and made a stab.

[Red Arrow]

Probably. Need better brand of to forget the Sherry and stick to Marshall's I guess. Anyway, the general population is pretty dumbass in America. We're pretty smart about music and celebrity but not the law, math, science and history. Some immigrants are dumb too. My point is that we have a group of pretty well educated, well paid posters who cross culturalize. You'll notice only you and I offered anything new. I was asked to offer a solution and made a stab.

A little help to get you back on track.

[waterboy]

That'll keep Conie happy.

[Hometown]

Because some thoughtful people are participating in this discussion I would like to point out that the change we are talking about has already occurred.  The Latin community in Oklahoma has arrived and is doing quite well despite our racist attempts to quash it.  The Latin community that I know is much like the best of us.  They are hard working with strong families and strong faith.  They are the epitome of the American dream.  Our system is fortified and our way of life is reinforced by their participation.

The real problem here is not the dignity of Latin people it is the failure of the Leadership of Oklahoma to address the needs of low income Oklahomans in general and I would say specifically the failure of Democratic leadership in Oklahoma to advocate for the Poor Whites of Oklahoma. 

Poor Whites are the odd man out here and are sorely in need of care and attention.  They are the largest demographic of poverty and yet we don't even acknowledge that they exist.  They are largely responsible for the support for this campaign of hate against Latins.  So to answer your call for a solution Waterboy, I would say that the well being of the Poor Whites of Oklahoma is intimately tied to the tolerance of newcomers of our community.

[guido911]

Probably. Need better brand of Sherry I guess. Anyway, the general population is pretty dumbass in America. We're pretty smart about music and celebrity but not the law, math, science and history. Some immigrants are dumb too. My point is that we have a group of pretty well educated, well paid posters who cross culturalize. You'll notice only you and I offered anything new. I was asked to offer a solution and made a stab.

I supported in large measure HB 1804, which is the reason why I have not offered up anything "new". I do agree with you on going after predatory employers, and 1804 does some of that. However, it is very hard to sympathize with the plight of the "illegal" alien when they: 1) have no business being in this country and, 2) siphon off U.S. citizens and those immigrants that do not break the rules.

As for your solution, it is nothing more than rewarding bad behavior. What might work is if all the illegals would leave the country then stand in line like everyone who wants a piece of the American dream. That way they can be accounted for and taxed, just like you and I are by the census bureau and IRS.

[Hoss]

Finally! The question begs and the lame keep crying, "are there no jails? are there no INS agents? can't they read our volumes of law and keep up?"

I am amazed at the reactionary nature of the replies here when I spent late nite hours trying to come up with something (flawed) but creative. There has to be a better way than just lock em up or build a wall.

Build a wall yes. 

For those who are here...

One: They need to register and be put on the clock.  In one year, show that you are making inroads to becoming a US citizen, or we will take steps to send you home.  This must start on a specific date, be given an amnesty period to register.  If you're past the amnesty period of registering, you get sent back.  Each case gets revisited every year while registered until citizenship is attained.

Two (this would be the toughest and not sure if even it could be done): modify the wording in the first section of the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States.   It currently reads:

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

It's vague and should be retooled to indicated those immigrants or nationals need to be legal, and not illegal.  Thus eliminating the 'anchor baby' stigma.  Not sure if a separate amendment would need to be ratified to change the wording or not.

I admit these are only two and probably aren't very popular with my fellow lefties, but that's my feeling on it.

[Red Arrow]

Anchor babies:  If the illegal alien parents are deported back to their home country the cry is that "we" are splitting up the family.  What prevents the parents from taking the baby with them?

[waterboy]

I supported in large measure HB 1804, which is the reason why I have not offered up anything "new". I do agree with you on going after predatory employers, and 1804 does some of that. However, it is very hard to sympathize with the plight of the "illegal" alien when they: 1) have no business being in this country and, 2) siphon off U.S. citizens and those immigrants that do not break the rules.

As for your solution, it is nothing more than rewarding bad behavior. What might work is if all the illegals would leave the country then stand in line like everyone who wants a piece of the American dream. That way they can be accounted for and taxed, just like you and I are by the census bureau and IRS.

I think your post pretty much sums up the differences we have. I can understand your preference for aliens respecting our laws. I wish Americans would respect our laws too. They don't and, pragmatically, we resort to varieties of ways to enforce, encourage or incentivise the behaviours we know are needed.

Like speeding in construction zones. Its illegal. We arrest people, we ticket them, we post limits, we put up flashers, we run public service ads educating people about them. Then they speed anyway. The methods used simply aren't working because the need for speed is too great and there isn't 100% enforcement. Patience is learned early in life and the solutions to a lot of such behaviors lie there.

Same thing with tax evaders, cell phone drivers, smoking etc. Sometimes we even allow or reward some bad behaviors in order to accomplish a greater goal. We forgive late parking fine penalties, we make sentence modifications for criminals in return for information, we allow pleadings to lesser charges in order to save the taxpayers money. All pragmatic efforts to make a faulty system work. Some allege the level of justice received is in direct proportion to the cost of the lawyer. If true, we have some citizens whose wealth makes their citizenship better than others. Which brings up another irony. If these were wealthy immigrants who were bringing in large amounts of capital to invest in our local economy, is there any doubt their arrival would be less controversial?

Anyway, in the end I believe you are more idealistic than I am. I don't ever see a manmade system that can effectively do what you and Hoss think the law can do with illegal immigration because the factors involved, greed, ignorance, jealousy and chauvinism are immutable. Therefore, I would opt for some way of pragmatically dealing with those factors for the greater good. We simply can't build enough prisons, hire enough security or build enough walls to do otherwise.

[waterboy]

Build a wall yes.  

For those who are here...

One: They need to register and be put on the clock.  In one year, show that you are making inroads to becoming a US citizen, or we will take steps to send you home.  This must start on a specific date, be given an amnesty period to register.  If you're past the amnesty period of registering, you get sent back.  Each case gets revisited every year while registered until citizenship is attained.

Two (this would be the toughest and not sure if even it could be done): modify the wording in the first section of the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States.   It currently reads:

It's vague and should be retooled to indicated those immigrants or nationals need to be legal, and not illegal.  Thus eliminating the 'anchor baby' stigma.  Not sure if a separate amendment would need to be ratified to change the wording or not.

I admit these are only two and probably aren't very popular with my fellow lefties, but that's my feeling on it.

The constitution is fine. The founding fathers weren't naive folks. They were possibly more welcoming of immigration of any sort to make sure the country had the labor to grow and prosper. They certainly didn't let it get in the way of slavery. Its pretty clear to me anyway. The anchor baby issue could be addressed by your registration and by providing incentives for family to acquire citizenship as well.

I can't believe any American who has any memory of the Berlin Wall, or the Great Wall of China could advocate one on our border. Even stranger is thinking that it would work. Really, step back a moment and think of its impact. About as useful as a twenty story Indian statue in far North Tulsa.