2009: The Year in Hate

[Hometown]

Dolfanbob, I would like to address the issue you raise.  

When you deny an immigrant the ability to obtain a driver's license then a large part of your community does not learn the "rules for driving" and driving conditions deteriorate and because driving without a license is illegal then "hit and run" accidents soar.  Immigrants who would like to buy insurance cannot because of the rules you have helped put in place.  I would also like to ask you about the Mothers and Wives of men who have been deported from the U.S.  I would like to ask you about the Children who are separated from their Fathers.  Do they not matter because they have brown skins and speak a different language?

Now let me tell you that if I had lived in Tulsa in 1921 during the worst race riot in U.S. history, I would have hidden Blacks in my home.  If I had lived in Germany during WWII I would have done everything possible to help Jews escape.  If I had lived in Tulsa when Indian land was being stolen from Indians for Whites I would have done everything within my means to stop it.  Today it is my responsbility to try and stop other Oklahomans from perpetrating the same old racism in a new garb.  It is my obligation.  And to not take action, to be aware of what is going on and to do nothing to try and stop it -- is a sin of the first degree.

Fifty percent of the children in Oklahoma public elementary schools are Latin.  Where do you think this is going and what do you think your prospects are for continuing your campaign of hated?

[Hoss]

Dolfanbob, I would like to address the issue you raise.  

When you deny an immigrant the ability to obtain a driver's license then a large part of your community does not learn the "rules for driving" and driving conditions deteriorate and because driving without a license is illegal then "hit and run" accidents soar.  Immigrants who would like to buy insurance cannot because of the rules you have helped put in place.  I would also like to ask you about the Mothers and Wives of men who have been deported from the U.S.  I would like to ask you about the Children who are separated from their Fathers.  Do they not matter because they have brown skins and speak a different language?

Now let me tell you that if I had lived in Tulsa in 1921 during the worst race riot in U.S. history, I would have hidden Blacks in my home.  If I had lived in Germany during WWII I would have done everything possible to help Jews escape.  If I had lived in Tulsa when Indian land was being stolen from Indians for Whites I would have done everything within my means to stop it.  Today it is my responsbility to try and stop other Oklahomans from perpetrating the same old racism in a new garb.  It is my obligation.  And to not take action, to be aware of what is going on and to do nothing to try and stop it -- is a sin of the first degree.

Fifty percent of the children in Oklahoma public elementary schools are Latin.  Where do you think this is going and what do you think your prospects are for continuing your campaign of hated?

Apples/oranges regarding the Race Riot scenario you pose.  Blacks at the time were citizens.  LEGAL citizens, even if they were considered second or third class citizens.

What do you think Mexico does with Americans who don't follow correct immigration law?  They are deported.  How about Canada?  They are deported.  Why should it be any different here?

[guido911]

Now let me tell you that if I had lived in Tulsa in 1921 during the worst race riot in U.S. history, I would have hidden Blacks in my home.  If I had lived in Germany during WWII I would have done everything possible to help Jews escape.  If I had lived in Tulsa when Indian land was being stolen from Indians for Whites I would have done everything within my means to stop it.  Today it is my responsbility to try and stop other Oklahomans from perpetrating the same old racism in a new garb.  It is my obligation.  And to not take action, to be aware of what is going on and to do nothing to try and stop it -- is a sin of the first degree.

You forgot this one:  "If I had lived during the period of the Vietnam war and was called upon to serve with my fellow countrymen, I would not have fled to Canada or done whatever I could to avoid military service. Oh wait, nevermind."

Spare us your faux courage and bravery.

[Conan71]

Dolfanbob, I would like to address the issue you raise.  

When you deny an immigrant the ability to obtain a driver's license then a large part of your community does not learn the "rules for driving" and driving conditions deteriorate and because driving without a license is illegal then "hit and run" accidents soar.  Immigrants who would like to buy insurance cannot because of the rules you have helped put in place.  I would also like to ask you about the Mothers and Wives of men who have been deported from the U.S.  I would like to ask you about the Children who are separated from their Fathers.  Do they not matter because they have brown skins and speak a different language?

Now let me tell you that if I had lived in Tulsa in 1921 during the worst race riot in U.S. history, I would have hidden Blacks in my home.  If I had lived in Germany during WWII I would have done everything possible to help Jews escape.  If I had lived in Tulsa when Indian land was being stolen from Indians for Whites I would have done everything within my means to stop it.  Today it is my responsbility to try and stop other Oklahomans from perpetrating the same old racism in a new garb.  It is my obligation.  And to not take action, to be aware of what is going on and to do nothing to try and stop it -- is a sin of the first degree.

Fifty percent of the children in Oklahoma public elementary schools are Latin.  Where do you think this is going and what do you think your prospects are for continuing your campaign of hated?

Hometown, you mistake pragmatism as hatred.  I agree there are some backwardsass hicks who are racially, or more correctly, ethnically intollerant when it comes to the Hispanic population, but I maintain that is a very small minority. 

These laws were in no way written to discriminate against a particular ethnic group. They were written to protect the jobs of legal immigrants and legal citizens, as well as their property and prosperity.

You also keep mistaking "immigrant" and "alien" with "illegal immigrant" or "illegal alien".  I do not personally know one person who has a problem with legal immigrants or legal aliens.

[waterboy]

I can't speak to what was in the hearts of those who championed the immigration bill here in OK. I am dubious that they were entirely wholesome. More likely a combination of electioneering, pandering, protectionism and fear.

But here is my concern. Unintended consequences the law has spawned. More hit/runs. More petty crime. More hate filled diatribes based on generalizations. Families in disarray. That is because there is demand for low wage services here in the states from outside countries. Conversely, those countries have burgeoning populations thanks to religious beliefs and lack of birth control alternatives. They look at us and see a chance for a better life. Just like immigrants from the past. And don't kid yourself, many of those immigrants were illegal or barely legal or paying under the table for their acceptance.

Just like the drugs we demand from other countries, illegal immigration will continue unabated regardless of how many laws are passed or enforced. We can choose to spend our resources on detection and enforcement or....we could institute PRAGMATIC systems, like HT has suggested, that control, direct and encourage those populations to join in the American system instead of continuuing the bloodletting we're engaged in.

[Red Arrow]

I can't speak to what was in the hearts of those who championed the immigration bill here in OK. I am dubious that they were entirely wholesome. More likely a combination of electioneering, pandering, protectionism and fear.

But here is my concern. Unintended consequences the law has spawned. More hit/runs. More petty crime. More hate filled diatribes based on generalizations. Families in disarray. That is because there is demand for low wage services here in the states from outside countries. Conversely, those countries have burgeoning populations thanks to religious beliefs and lack of birth control alternatives. They look at us and see a chance for a better life. Just like immigrants from the past. And don't kid yourself, many of those immigrants were illegal or barely legal or paying under the table for their acceptance.

Just like the drugs we demand from other countries, illegal immigration will continue unabated regardless of how many laws are passed or enforced. We can choose to spend our resources on detection and enforcement or....we could institute PRAGMATIC systems, like HT has suggested, that control, direct and encourage those populations to join in the American system instead of continuuing the bloodletting we're engaged in.

I think that 100 yrs ago (approximately) when my grandfather arrived on the shores of the USA, you mostly needed to not be sick to be let in legally.

"... like HT has suggested, that control, direct ...".  I am willing to listen to any ideas to "control" since what we are doing now obviously doesn't work.  Have any?  I agree we will never be able to close the doors, unless our economy really tanks and there are no jobs available.  I don't think we can afford a completely open door policy either.   

[Hometown]

During the 1930s U.S. born citizens of Latin ethnicity were deported from the United States to open up jobs for "White" citizens.

During the 1930s residents of Oklahoma were legally barred from entering California.  Some Oklahomans would establish residency in other states in order to immigrate to California.

The U.S. had a guest worker program early in the 20th century.

Growers have advocated a guest worker program with a path to citizenship since at least the 1970s.

In 1975 a Papago Indian friend of mine drove me to the countryside outside of Carmel so that I could see the shantis beside the fields where migrant labor lived. 

[Red Arrow]

In 1975 a Papago Indian friend of mine drove me to the countryside outside of Carmel so that I could see the shantis beside the fields where migrant labor lived. 

The Declaration of Independence originally said..... life, liberty, happiness, a fine horse and carriage, and a really nice home.  Partisan bickering reduced it to what we know now... life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.  Can't afford everything.

[Hoss]

During the 1930s U.S. born citizens of Latin ethnicity were deported from the United States to open up jobs for "White" citizens.

During the 1930s residents of Oklahoma were legally barred from entering California.  Some Oklahomans would establish residency in other states in order to immigrate to California.

The U.S. had a guest worker program early in the 20th century.

Growers have advocated a guest worker program with a path to citizenship since at least the 1970s.

In 1975 a Papago Indian friend of mine drove me to the countryside outside of Carmel so that I could see the shantis beside the fields where migrant labor lived. 

Doesn't guest worker = work visa?

Yet again, I know alot of us here do NOT have any problems with legal immigration.  I have to defend this position almost daily it seems when we talk about it at work.  A lot of my fellow 'lefties' blur the line between illegal/undocumented and legal immigrants.

I'll say this one last time, then I'm done on the subject.

GET RIGHT WITH THE LAW OR GET OUT!

[Red Arrow]

Doesn't guest worker = work visa?

Yet again, I know alot of us here do NOT have any problems with legal immigration.  I have to defend this position almost daily it seems when we talk about it at work.  A lot of my fellow 'lefties' blur the line between illegal/undocumented and legal immigrants.

I'll say this one last time, then I'm done on the subject.

GET RIGHT WITH THE LAW OR GET OUT!

Hoss, hope you don't lose any sleep over this but.... I agree with you on this post.

[Hoss]

Hoss, hope you don't lose any sleep over this but.... I agree with you on this post.

I've always thought that.  Just because it says D on my voter card doesn't mean I espouse every D ideology.  Just like I hope those that have R on theirs might actually have some left-leaning views.  Hell, if the Modern Whig party took up residence in Oklahoma I'd register with them in a minute.

I understand that people want to come here to better themselves.  But do it in a way that makes you right with the law.  I've stated several times on here that I've known people who have and it makes them madder than hell to watch all the illegals pi$$ing all over immigration law, when they busted their a$$es for years to become US citizens.

It's privilege people!  You are either born into it or you earn it.  Hopefully if you're born into it you earn it in one fashion or another.  Those who earn it by traveling from less fortunate countries and get the immigration right I will proudly call 'fellow US citizen'.

[waterboy]

Yeah, that's great. You're a principled man. Sell it to the local businessmen who depend on illegal immigrant labor, legal fees, drugs, sex and such. Tell it to the families who have lost loved ones from unlicensed, uninsured drivers who had every incentive to run away and none to stay. And we're not even a border state.

It seems so simple doesn't it? Drugs? BAD! Just Say NO! Throw their butts in jail!  Illegal Immigration? BAD Just Don't Do It! Deport them or throw their butts in jail!  Problem is that as long as suburban high school kids come to the north side to buy drugs that came here illegally, the drug trade flourishes. As long as illegals can get fake tags, fake DL's, paid legal representation, untaxed cash for their labor or sex, and living accomodations; as long as principled men think they can actually stop them by passing laws and thumping their chests like Mussolini.......the illegals are not going to go away. And so innocent people suffer. I don't care about being a "D" or a "R". Its common sense that ignoring a problem with such great incentives doesn't make it go away.

I'm not attacking you Hoss. Nor do I approve of illegal immigrants flaunting our laws. I crave a more creative solution than what's been offered. We haven't really been known for creative solutions here since the traffic circle, the yield sign and the parking meter all from over 40 years ago.

[Red Arrow]

We haven't really been known for creative solutions here since the traffic circle, the yield sign and the parking meter all from over 40 years ago.

Yield sign and parking meter from OK, yep.

Couldn't find a reference to traffic circles being invented here and I'm not sure I would want to claim them.  My mother claims to have rescued my father from NJ traffic circles when they got married and dad moved to PA.  I'm not too sure about the difference between a modern roundabout vs. a traffic circle either from the descriptions I could find.

I'm not fond of parking meters either but understand the principle.

[guido911]

I crave a more creative solution than what's been offered. We haven't really been known for creative solutions here since the traffic circle, the yield sign and the parking meter all from over 40 years ago.

Let's start a list of "creative solutions" waterboy:

1.

[waterboy]

Hey, can't we buy some creatives to do this for us? I'm not that creative but I'll take a shot.

First thing that comes to mind is a story a fellow told me about his time in county jail a couple years ago. He made acquaintance with a Mexican guy there who told him he didn't know what to do to get home. Turns out he had been promised a well paying job in Tulsa in construction. The young man had been assured all the details like food, lodging, work permits etc had been taken care of. He was brought in illegally in a van with about a dozen other guys and dropped off at a construction site. The foreman looked them over and selected the ones he wanted. After a day of work the fellow was "discharged" without even being paid. He spoke halting English. Who's he going to complain to? He doesn't even know where he is or who the contractors are. Suddenly he's in a city far from home, no money, no family support and no food. The guys who brought him apparently got their money and disappeared.

He ended up stealing some food at a grocery store and was arrested. Now, the authorities realize he's not legal. They don't contact social agencies, they don't contact immigration authorities and there is no way this inmate makes Avalon or the city/county any money. He's a losing proposition for everyone. So, they kick him loose, take him a few blocks from the jail and drop him off. Then it happens again. Rinse/wash/repeat. Its a drain on everyone involved; the grocer, legal labor, cops, jail, taxpayers and social agencies.

But it was a boon for some people. These guys with the van don't just go down to Mexico on speculation. They have lists of needed skills from local companies in a variety of hard to track industries. Those companies have accountants and attorneys who have to know whats going on. The "lucky" workers who are good enough to be kept somehow end up with a support net. Lodging, ID's, vehicles, tags etc. Cash talks, but really, there has to be direct involvement with educated, connected people. Word around the street is that for cash you can get that support.

Perhaps thats where you could start. Compete with these unscrupulous labor finders by making a better offer. Maybe forming a foundation, made up of local businesses who suffer from unfair labor practices. They could make a visible upfront offer of amnesty for any illegal. The immigrants can then be part of a pool of workers that can choose to work towards citizenship/guest worker status with a portion of any wages going to the foundation.  Or the foundation could pay for transportation to their homeland.