Tulsa Police Chief Talks About Cuts

[MH2010]

TPD is a great police department.

In your earlier statement, you say "TPD actively prevents very few crimes that I have seen, and are more reactive then anything, and those reactions are limited." Evidently, you haven't seen very much. I guess you really haven't seen very much at all.  Just because you think you are educated about the police department doesn't make it so. 

However, the citizens of Tulsa will find out which one of us is right very soon. If 136 officers are laid-off, the Special Investigation Division and street crimes units will be shut down. The officers in those divisions will be put in patrol as well as alot of officers in the Detective Division. If you are right, crime won't increase. It will stay the same. If I am right, you will see a rise in crime because the police department will be totally reactive.

Evidently, I hit a nerve. I won't respond by calling you names.

[RecycleMichael]

I don't think anyone wants to see 136 officers laid off. We want to have the best force and plenty of officers to do the job.

We also want the roads repaired, we want better schools, and we want a million other things like opened pools, curbside recycling, streetlights on, and a new light rail system.

That is what we want. What can we afford?

I don't mean to sound uninformed and all, but every department head could do a better job if they could just have a few more bodies and pay their workers a little more. We could have water coming out of the tap that is crystal clear, we could have the trash man come into the kitchen each day and empty the garbage, and we could one teacher for every student if we just had more money.

There is no more money. The police department has to come to grips with that fact. You don't get to get other department's money. You don't get to change the rules of public financing by selling capital items for operational expenses.

I think the mayor is being reasonable for asking for some reorganization of middle and upper management of the police force. It would seem to me that it could be more productive than simply laying off the lowest paid workers on the force.

[custosnox]

I never said that TPD does not prevent crimes, I said ACTIVELY prevents few.  The crimes that are prevented by TPD are generally from taking criminals off of the street after they have committed a crime.  In other words, the drug dealer that gets locked up for dealing drugs will be prevented from dealing drugs while incarcerated.  You imply that our safety will be at risk because there won't be anyone there to respond to 911 calls, however, calls to 911, beyond the all too often domestic disturbance calls, for police reasons are going to be after the fact a large portion of the time.  Thus, lay offs to TPD will effect my safety very little when it comes to comes to calling 911 for police.  Do I think that laying off so many officers is a good idea? No.  But trying to use scare tactics to sway people is just over used and I'm getting sick of it.  

And no, TPD is NOT a great police department.  Unfortunately, I don't know of any that would fit into that classification.  

As far as hitting a nerve, yes, you did.  I have been a victim of many crimes, from theft, to assault, to burglary.  To date, TPD has done NOTHING to resolve these.  The only thing that has had any effect on these has been my own actions.  I've chased criminals through my neighbor in nothing but shorts.  I've confronted people on my lawn with nothing but a ball bat, and the one that gets me all worked up when someone tells me that I need to educate myself is the incident where thugs kicked in my door to take my belongings and were stopped only by me greeting them with my gun that still, months later, causes me stress every time my doorbell rings.  So my calling you an idiot may have been a bit beneath me, but is far better then the profanities your comments made me want to post.  

And sorry, sitting in parking lots doing "paperwork", or driving the primary roads does not really constitute patrols.

And for the record, I spent years chasing down criminals, arresting them and hauling them in, so I am not beyond being empathetic of the situation.

[custosnox]

I don't think anyone wants to see 136 officers laid off. We want to have the best force and plenty of officers to do the job.

We also want the roads repaired, we want better schools, and we want a million other things like opened pools, curbside recycling, streetlights on, and a new light rail system.

That is what we want. What can we afford?

I don't mean to sound uninformed and all, but every department head could do a better job if they could just have a few more bodies and pay their workers a little more. We could have water coming out of the tap that is crystal clear, we could have the trash man come into the kitchen each day and empty the garbage, and we could one teacher for every student if we just had more money.

There is no more money. The police department has to come to grips with that fact. You don't get to get other department's money. You don't get to change the rules of public financing by selling capital items for operational expenses.

I think the mayor is being reasonable for asking for some reorganization of middle and upper management of the police force. It would seem to me that it could be more productive than simply laying off the lowest paid workers on the force.

lol you just made me think of an episode of the simpsons where homer gets elected as the head of sanitation.  He runs the departments budget dry in a few months doing stuff like having the trash guys go into the kitchen and taking out everyones trash.

[MH2010]

RM,

You active disdain for the police union is well known. If the mayor wants to reorganze or restructure the department then he will have to negotiate with the union just like he will have to negotiate with the other unions in the city.  The union realizes there is no money. We gave the cars back and also changed how comp time is applied.  

The union wants to use the money to save the jobs of police officers because that is the people they represent. However, the union would also be fine with using the money available to save all city employees until negotiations are done. The union knows that if the city lays-off police officers they will never be hired back.  City policy and state law both say that officer's certifications are only good for one year. If they are not hired back in a year (they won't be) then they will have to go back thru the academy and start all over.

If we need to take a pay cut we will. I think all city of Tulsa employees would take a pay cut right now to save jobs.  It could even be structured so that people who make the most money take more of a cut.  The union would be agreeable to that also. The city needs to start the negotiation process. Once the contracts are done, then the city can lay-off however many they need to. Hopefully,  no one will be laid-off.

However, that is not what the mayor wants.  The mayor wants immediate cuts of 2.2 or 4.4%. Those immediate cuts would have to come in lay-offs and city policy as well as our contract with the city is very clear on how those would happen.  Everyone has to follow the rules.

[MH2010]

Cust,

I would argue that the Tulsa police department prevents many crimes.  I see it every day.

Your statement about 911 calls prove that you do have a very limited knowledge of 911 calls and responses to those calls.

Your statement about about not knowing any great police departments speaks clearly about your opinion of all police departments, not just TPD.

After being the victim of so many crimes, you may need to get some psychological assistance. Feeling stress everytime a doorbell rings could be an indicator of PTSD.  There are many good therapists in the Tulsa area.  Hopefully, with the right amount of therapy you can recover.

[custosnox]

I say that I don't know of any great police departments because I hold such departments to a very high standard, which all that I know of are falling short of.  Some are good, but none reach the level of great.  TPD falls even shorter in many area's.  But this all gets off of the topic at hand.  It is not a good thing for TPD to have to be put under budget cuts, but no department is immune.  Hopefully this will have a positive effect, such as a more positive ability of the department to account for it's budget and use it's funds more wisely, but so far it does not look like they have that in mind.

As far as the PTSD, it's very possible, but unless your offering to pay for any kind of counseling, looks like I'm on my own to face this as well.

[RecycleMichael]

RM,

You active disdain for the police union is well know.

I know. I didn't use to feel this way. I know many officers and they are all fine people who work hard and truly care about my safety. My father was a twenty year policeman here in Tulsa as well.

I soured on the union when I read on this forum five or six years ago about your negotiation tactics. The union reps took the attitude that if they could find any money in the city budget, they should be able to keep it. The union hired a lawyer out of OKC to try to embarass city budget officials, then officers gloated about it here on TulsaNow. Other city employees took a paycut that year, but the police got a pay raise.  

I am also a supporter of unions in general. I believe that employees should have the right to hire someone to fight for their job. I still see a need for unions in this country, but see examples like the carpenter's union hiring homeless people to chant outside of businesses as a terrible tactic.

I hope this all gets resolved soon.

[MH2010]

The union never tried to "embarrass" city budget officials.  The police union is full of policemen.   The city has a whole department of lawyers and accountants. There are very few accountants or lawyers in the union so we hired Ron York because he is an expert in contract negotiations. In a response to our success winning independant arbitrations, the city has hired Tony Puckett. He is out of OKC also.  Mr. Puckett is known as a union buster and has been attacking our contract for two years now.  Someone should try and find out how much the city has paid him for doing their labor negotiating.  

The year you are talking about was the year that employees took at 2.1% pay cut (I think this was 2005).  The cut saved the city about 1.2 million (if my memory is correct.) The FOP found a way to save the city more money by not taking pay for overtime for the year.  The FOP saved the city 3.1 million dollars. You forgot to mention that city employees (other than policemen or firemen) received a 3% pay increase midyear the following year. The police and firemen did not.  

It's funny that you are a supporter of unions in general because I'm not anymore outside of civil service. I don't agree with the teamsters, the autoworkers union or most of the airplane workers unions. The carpenter union thing really makes me mad. I can't believe carpenters would allow their union to do that.

Here is an interesting article by Ron York if anyone cares to read it:

http://policepay.blogspot.com/2009/12/tale-of-two-cities-oklahoma-city-and.html

[RecycleMichael]

The unions I don't support are the professional sports player's unions. Each player already has an agent. The union just serves to negotiate out contract clauses like suspensions and avoid drug testing.

[rwarn17588]

RM,

You active disdain for the police union is well know.

Considering that RM's descendants were cops and that RM is a stout defender of unions in general, perhaps you and the FOP ought to ask why it has drawn RM's disdain. Given these facts, did it occur to you at all that this disdain might have merit?

[Red Arrow]

RM,

Your active disdain for the police union is well known.

Just helping you catch your typos.

[MH2010]

Just helping you catch your typos.

Thanks. That is what I get for not proof reading what I write.

RM and I have talked about why he dislikes the union. We see things differently. We've just agreed to disagree.

[RecycleMichael]

MH2010 and I have had this discussion for years online and in person. I respect him for coming here and giving out the police union side of the topic at hand.

The best thing about this is that it will be decided soon. I applaud the Mayor for his handling so far and his unwillingness to just fund a short term solution.

I don't doubt that being a policeman is a hard job. It deserves fair pay and we should do all we can to get them the tools and the manpower to do the job well. I also think that any organization with 900 employees can be structured differently with different layers of management.

That is what the Mayor keeps saying. Don't just say you are going to layoff the least senior employees. He is insisting on doing it differently.

Maybe we don't need three deputy chiefs, 9 majors, and 25 captains...

[shadows]

RM quoted: Maybe we don't need three deputy chiefs, 9 majors, and 25 captains...
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Being the city is in the presumed need of such regimentation of the offices within the city, it is easy for one to agree on the above quote.  When 9 councilors as part time city employees spend thousands to be elected in their district paying $18,000 a year or equivalent to $9 dollars an hour while $50 a hour is paid the $100,000 dollar employees and the unions run the city, it is time for another chief someone with brass balls that cannot be squeezed to take over.

A progressive city that does not even own its city hall.