Another "Oklahoma's Number One" Thread--Deficit

[waterboy]

Nathan, thanks for the reference to the Overton Window. I had never heard of it. I had seen similar tactics employed in sales and social settings but hadn't considered its use in politics. In fact, my wife and I often used to laugh at each other's "growing up poor" stories with the effect that we began to feel quite wealthy in the current time. I guess we were moving the window as well.

In a 70's campy pulp classic "How to Pick Up Girls" I remember one tactic was to find a crowded bus or subway and come up to a pretty girl and either pinch her or kiss her and then quickly dissappear into the crowd. Then wait a week or so and go back to the same location, at the same time and make eye contact and smile at the same woman. "She will think she knows you from somewhere" and conversation will ensue! Not recommended, but the same concept.

[waterboy]

That's one of the problems with business today, they have no long term plans to survive. Everything is geared around short term profit.  It's OK to sell off part of your infrastructure today to maximize this year's profit.  Let someone else worry about the fact that in five years the company will wish they hadn't sold it. (Taken from an actual situation that happened many years ago.)

I agree that government is not a business in the sense of making a profit. Where would the profits be distributed?  There are obvious government duties like national defense.  Much beyond that and we start going our separate ways.

Your remarks about business ring quite true. Many have lamented the short term profit view which exploded onto the scene during the 1980's.

Government is not so much a for profit corporation, as it can be viewed as a non-profit corporation where there are no profits because they've all been spread among the directors and employees as expenses or plowed back into operations. Sort of like the PGA.

[guido911]

Couldn't have said it better Nathan. Everyone is so insistent that government be run like a business. Show me any successful business that doesn't keep a safety stock, a reserve built up during good times to weather the downturns. These have been irresponsible, selfish, shortsighted legislators.

Guido, your partisan rant is without substance. Most Dems in OK would be Repubs ANYWHERE else. Most of the candidates are registered that way cause so many Okie voters are registered that way-voters who haven't voted for a Democratic senator, congressman or president since '65. There is no doubt we're one of the reddest of the red states. OK is divided up by rural vs city issues, not partisanship.

First, I am shocked, shocked that you agree with nate. As for the partisan rant riff, for once just shut up. You sound ridiculous. I mean, "I didn't call them out as dems because thems ain't REAL dems" raises the buffoonery bar to a new level-particularly after you own, obviously non partisan, "Bush and the boys" comment.  

As to the government run like a business, I don't think "everyone" wants that since I am not in that boat. First, as stated earlier, businesses exist to make profit, government does not. Government is empowered to do only what the people says it can do through constitutional and statutory prescription. Your belief that government is some sort of sentient omnipotent super being which hovers over us is simply wrong. Now, it the Oklahoma people decided to give its money (tax dollars) back to themselves, it was their decision. So Nate, blame yourself.    

Nate:  If you read my response to waterboy, you would realize that I never said we didn't need a rainy day account. However, in reading your response to mine and following it to its logical conclusion, you feel that we should have mega-rainy day fund without caps on the amount government could seize from tax payers for "just in case" situations. Where is the source for that authority?  In addition, I find it interesting that you would call out the government run like a business "meme" as your original post in this thread introduced that concept to the discussion (Remember: "Not having a rainy day account is even more stupid on a governmental level than a personal or corporate level...")(emphasis mine)

[waterboy]

Give it a break Gweed. Better a buffoon than a boor. I couldn't tell you if Nate is conservative, dem, gay or blind. I don't take much notice of such things. I did notice he made sense. You don't. Your blind partisanship and devotion to conservatism is stiflingly boring. Its as if you never acknowledged that the world may have existed before you and outside of you. You need not take every point someone makes and attempt to turn it into some kind of tea-bag rant.

When you make some remark like your "sentient omnipotent superbeing" rant it sounds like you may be able to read and repeat some political website spin, but have real difficulty with reading comprehension of real people posts. I simply noted the similarity of current government and non-profit operations. Sheesh.

Where were you the last 35 years when the rally cry for politicians was "run government like a business"? Where were you when it became de riguer in political mailers to emphasize how many employees the candidate was responsible for meeting payroll? Probably in diapers. Now we reap the benefit of having corporates jump from private to public venues and back again carrying with them their political, historical ignorance and making sure their corporate masters are served and their constituents are re educated to believe their interests are the same as lobbyists. When someone says "everyone" it is a commonly accepted substitute for general acceptance unless you're defending your thesis for a degree. Get over it.

Lastly, the Oklahoma people did not demand that those measily <$100 checks were sent to them a few years ago when we had a surplus of tax receipts. Nor did they demand that vehicle inspections cease, the bulk of tax reciepts be spent outside of Tulsa county, or the $40 sales tax credits either. Had they been told the consequences of such folly and how it is not an acceptable business practice to give all your profits back to your stockholders, and invest in only one part of a business while other areas starve,  I doubt they would have agreed to it.

Your philosophy of government, "if the Oklahoma people decided to give its money (tax dollars) back to themselves, it was their decision" is pretty cute. That logic would lead to what Red noted. Just sell off the taxpayers assets and return the taxes to voters if that's what they want. A CHICKEN IN EVERY POT I TELL YOU!  I know I am lacking in many areas of education, but I know what I know. Sometimes you seem so naive it hurts.

[we vs us]

The Overton window is real, and the proof is the modern-day conception of the Democrats as being largely liberal, when in substance they are exactly the same as Republicans on all but a few peripheral social issues.

The Republicans (socially at first, and in more recent years economically) moved so far to the right so quickly that it changed people's perception of the Democrats.

As far as the people actually in office at a national level, we don't really have a left and right now, we have "slightly more corporatist" and "slightly less corporatist." The social issues are just window dressing.

And when I say that I'm not saying corporations in general are a bad thing, although they (like the people that run them) tend to move in that direction in absence of rules, I'm just saying that the corporate form has been elevated to a status of religion amongst a large number of our fellow countrymen, and it shows in the ever-relaxing regulations and the return to near monopolies in many markets. The pendulum has once again swung too far, IMO.

And FWIW, in my opinion the whole "run government like a business" meme is incredibly misguided. Government is not a business and should not be a business. Its purpose is not to make a profit, nor should it have the short term horizon most businesses do. Government's focus should be on where we want to be three to six years from now, not three to six months from now. They're just completely incompatible philosophies, although that could be again due to the movement of the Overton window. 40 years ago business was run with an eye to the longer term, and the whole idea of running government like a business made a certain amount of sense. Today, with the focus solely on stock price and this quarter's earnings, the two should not be married.

Plus eleventy one.  An excellent summation.

[nathanm]

Now, it the Oklahoma people decided to give its money (tax dollars) back to themselves, it was their decision. So Nate, blame yourself.    

Nate:  If you read my response to waterboy, you would realize that I never said we didn't need a rainy day account. However, in reading your response to mine and following it to its logical conclusion, you feel that we should have mega-rainy day fund without caps on the amount government could seize from tax payers for "just in case" situations. Where is the source for that authority?  In addition, I find it interesting that you would call out the government run like a business "meme" as your original post in this thread introduced that concept to the discussion (Remember: "Not having a rainy day account is even more stupid on a governmental level than a personal or corporate level...")(emphasis mine)

Oklahoma's politicians decided that. Why? Probably to buy votes. (not literally as in an oral contract, obviously)

I considered including (I even wrote it, but decided to delete it) that caveat regarding a cap on the rainy day fund, but I figured it was obvious I didn't support the government amassing unlimited funds and the post was getting too long already. I do think we should have 2-4 years of expenses available as a reserve. (I haven't considered the range too strongly, it's pretty arbitrary) It seems like a lot, but it would be enough to deal with several years worth of reduced sales tax reciepts while not contributing to further erosion of the tax base with immediate layoffs, yet still allowing for an orderly force reduction when the scope of the revenue reduction and its term become more clear. It would allow for more thoughtful reaction to economic changes, rather than knee-jerk reactions.

I think you're aware of the common statement (especially amongst the '94 Republicans) that "government should be run like a business." I thought of it because I heard a radio ad for some government agency while I was driving through Alabama touting how they were running themselves "like a business," as if that was something to be proud of.

I agree that government is government and business is business and they should not be run in the same way.

[guido911]

Here's another of these "happy state" polls, Oklahoma checks in at number 21.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB126152663510002187.html

The bluest of the blue states dominate the bottom 10. 

[RecycleMichael]

That is interesting, guido.

I wonder why liberals are less happy.

[Red Arrow]

That is interesting, guido.

I wonder why liberals are less happy.

Their Superiority Complex makes it difficult to make friends.

[guido911]

That is interesting, guido.

I wonder why liberals are less happy.

Because we never get what we want from those awful conservapukes..

[TheArtist]

That is interesting, guido.

I wonder why liberals are less happy.

Ignorance is bliss.

[rwarn17588]

Ignorance is bliss.

Beat me to it, Artist.

[guido911]

Not a "Number One", but OK is no. 5 in most conservative state in the U.S.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/125480/Ideology-Three-Deep-South-States-Conservative.aspx

[heironymouspasparagus]

And in addition to being 5th most conservative, we are also in a bad place relative to other states in many other areas, such as

income (33),
education (36),
health care,
roads (17th worst),
energy consumption per capita (11th highest),
infant mortality (11th highest),
Federal aid to state and local govt (17th - so much for all those "rugged individualists"),
people with college education (41 - gee, why don't we get new industry???),
teacher salaries (47 - oh, that explains the college thing...),
nonfarm employeement (30th - 9.6% of us in manufacturing - reflects the education)
gross domestic product (29 - must be helped by the marijuana trade)
traffic fatalities rate (21 out of 50 - casual attitude toward DUI must be hard at work here)

health care (50 out of 50 - tied with Mississippi)

The best things we have are inversely proportional to the "conservatism" of this state.  The worst things, directly proportional.  Gee, imagine how great it would be if there were MORE conservatism here.  As if that could happen.

[Red Arrow]

And in addition to being 5th most conservative, we are also in a bad place relative to other states in many other areas, such as

income (33),
education (36),
health care,
roads (17th worst),
energy consumption per capita (11th highest),
infant mortality (11th highest),
Federal aid to state and local govt (17th - so much for all those "rugged individualists"),
people with college education (41 - gee, why don't we get new industry???),
teacher salaries (47 - oh, that explains the college thing...),
nonfarm employeement (30th - 9.6% of us in manufacturing - reflects the education)
gross domestic product (29 - must be helped by the marijuana trade)
traffic fatalities rate (21 out of 50 - casual attitude toward DUI must be hard at work here)

health care (50 out of 50 - tied with Mississippi)

The best things we have are inversely proportional to the "conservatism" of this state.  The worst things, directly proportional.  Gee, imagine how great it would be if there were MORE conservatism here.  As if that could happen.

I'd lot rather be like California.  All those problems you mentioned would be solved.