Ideas on funding/fixing public safety

[BKDotCom]

Shadows child of the great depression,

You have been around long enough to see technology create new jobs to replace the ones it reduced or eliminated.  What makes you think this won't continue?

A government job lost is a good thing..

Exact opposite of the real world private sector

[Red Arrow]

I've attempted this discussion with Shadows before... you won't get anywhere.

I didn't really think I would.  I just wanted to see what kind of drivel he would post.

[Steve]

Absolutely NO on any increase to sales taxes.  Sales taxes are the most regressive, obnoxious form of taxation.

I read in the Tulsa World that most property insurance policies include a benefit for local fire departments responding to calls, around $500, yet the Tulsa fire department has never persued or claimed these benefits.  What morons.  Mayor Bartlett mentioned this, and the Tulsa FD is an idiot for not persuing this revenue source and should do so immediately.

Personally, I prefer a city income tax of say 3% on all personal incomes generated within the city limits over $100,000.00.  No deductions, no BS.  But unfortunately, OK state constitution/law does not permit municipalities to levy income taxes.  Pity.
 

[OUGrad05]

Absolutely NO on any increase to sales taxes.  Sales taxes are the most regressive, obnoxious form of taxation.

I read in the Tulsa World that most property insurance policies include a benefit for local fire departments responding to calls, around $500, yet the Tulsa fire department has never persued or claimed these benefits.  What morons.  Mayor Bartlett mentioned this, and the Tulsa FD is an idiot for not persuing this revenue source and should do so immediately.

Personally, I prefer a city income tax of say 3% on all personal incomes generated within the city limits over $100,000.00.  No deductions, no BS.  But unfortunately, OK state constitution/law does not permit municipalities to levy income taxes.  Pity.

A city income tax doesn't fix the corruption in the city or misallocation of tax payer dollars.  I agree other forms of revenue should be explored but not an income tax. 

In addition how would such a tax be handled on inviduals who work in the city but live outside the city limits?  You can't tax them the full rate for services they may only use during business hours. 


Perhaps a tax on all incomes above X dollars is worth a thorough vetting but my initial reaction is no way.  Increased sales tax, or state taxing online transactions and distributing the money based on the zip code of the purchaser would be a good option IMO.  Millions of dollars are lost to online purchasing which greatly harms our municpalities.  I used to be 100% against taxing purchases on the internet but given the rapid rise in internet sales and falloff in local saes we have little choice.  It's that or increased property taxes or an income tax.

[MH2010]

I think to really start discussing this problem, people have to decide what kind of "long term" fixes are going to be possible. Some long term fixes, city income tax, combining TPD/TCSO, city getting a part of property taxes will take state law/statute changes that may or may not be possible.  The last time, the City of Tulsa tried to get a state statute changed regarding municipal funding it failed.  Also, people need to understand that what may be good for Tulsa may not be good for other municipalities/counties in the state and may be defeated.  

In regards to a metro police department, there is a reason that has not happened here or in the OKC metro area, where there is even more municipalities then the Tulsa area.  It was explained to TPD, TCSO and the city leaders that there are numerous state statute issues, OKlahoma Constitutional issues and pension system issues that would have to be addressed at the state level before it could be considered. This is why the Mayor and the new Chief of Police is no longer pushing for a "metro" police department.

As far as studies go, I'm all for an outside independent company to come in and do a manpower/effenciency study on all departments.  TPD just had one done last year under Mayor Taylor (http://www.tulsacouncil.org/pdfs/Tulsa%20Prsntn%208.26.08.pdf). It showed that the police department needs to civilianize some positions within the police department and add 75 more officers.  It sounded like a good plan to me.  However, now that we have laid-off 133 officers we are just that much more behind.

[Steve]

In addition how would such a tax be handled on inviduals who work in the city but live outside the city limits?  You can't tax them the full rate for services they may only use during business hours.  

Wanna bet?  I belive any income earned within the city limits should be subject to an income tax, regardless of domicile, at say 3% over a combined household income of $100,000.  Who cares where they live, if they earn the money in Tulsa you should pay the tax.  But like I said before, municipalities in OK can not levy income taxes per the state constitution and this should be changed ASAP by a statewide vote.  And what are the chances of that happening?  Unfortunately, zilch.  

[Rico]

Unfortunately the problem with funding for safety and law enforcement is not localized to the Tulsa area.

The 2010 inmate rodeo in McCalister has been canceled due to budget woes.
One State Correction Department official was quoted as saying...

"Unfortunately, the reality is we just don't have the number of correctional officers available to transport and secure the offenders who participate in the event."

[TeeDub]

A government job lost is a good thing..

Exact opposite of the real world private sector

I agree wholeheartedly.

[shadows]

The act was passed to combine city/metro governments.  It was discussed at meeting in the north library by the author of the bill.  It was thrown out by the high court.

One state cannot place sales taxes on purchases of the citizens of another state.

The city cannot place a sales tax on articles delivered outside the city.

Internet sales are taxed by the city on the honor system called a use tax.

A general sales tax on the internet purchases would require a small business to file hundreds of different city tax forms twice a month.  Such would create more hundreds on the unemployed line as most sales at present are warehouse sales involving one or two persons.

The city already receives a property tax collected by the county.

If you have already bought off the internet you owe the city sales tax on it.

Be honest and divvy up before councilor Turner come knocking.  It is payable to the OTC who retains a percentage for collecting it. Call them and they will send you the forms.

Or give all the monies collected to the unions and let them distribute it out the way they want on budgets to all departments.  That mayor fellow seems to have gotten some spunk since he left the council.  He sure called their bluff.   

Next time read the ballot before you vote as it may not read as it has been  programmed for you.

[OUGrad05]

The act was passed to combine city/metro governments.  It was discussed at meeting in the north library by the author of the bill.  It was thrown out by the high court.

One state cannot place sales taxes on purchases of the citizens of another state.

The city cannot place a sales tax on articles delivered outside the city.

Internet sales are taxed by the city on the honor system called a use tax.

A general sales tax on the internet purchases would require a small business to file hundreds of different city tax forms twice a month.  Such would create more hundreds on the unemployed line as most sales at present are warehouse sales involving one or two persons.

The city already receives a property tax collected by the county.

If you have already bought off the internet you owe the city sales tax on it.

Be honest and divvy up before councilor Turner come knocking.  It is payable to the OTC who retains a percentage for collecting it. Call them and they will send you the forms.

Or give all the monies collected to the unions and let them distribute it out the way they want on budgets to all departments.  That mayor fellow seems to have gotten some spunk since he left the council.  He sure called their bluff.   

Next time read the ballot before you vote as it may not read as it has been  programmed for you.

You are mising the point, some of us do claim items purchased online when taxes are due, but most do not.  I personally try to shop locally even if it means spending more.  I like my local tax dollars going to my local community and there are ways to significantly reduce the drawbacks to enforcing sales tax on the internet, it is not nearly as difficult as you make it out to be.    Also do not think I am necessarily in favor of this, I am simply saying we have to find a way to keep local governments funded at a reasonable level. 

[Red Arrow]

Wanna bet?  I belive any income earned within the city limits should be subject to an income tax, regardless of domicile, at say 3% over a combined household income of $100,000.  Who cares where they live, if they earn the money in Tulsa you should pay the tax.  But like I said before, municipalities in OK can not levy income taxes per the state constitution and this should be changed ASAP by a statewide vote.  And what are the chances of that happening?  Unfortunately, zilch.  

Assuming you could get the state constitution changed:

So you want businesses to move from Tulsa to the suburbs to help their employees avoid the "City of Tulsa Income Tax"?  What does the City of Tulsa offer to office dwellers that is not available in Owasso, Broken Arrow, Sapulpa, Sand Springs, Bixby, ....?  I don't know the percentage of businesses that own the buildings they occupy.  I expect those that rent have no real reason to stay if the cost goes up without an accompanying benefit.

Philadelphia, PA has (had in the 60s) a city income tax.  My dad was glad when his employer moved many of the office folk (including my dad) to King of Prussia.

What you propose will only work if all the neighboring cities/towns also enact a local income tax.

Sitting here as a suburbanite I often see the solution to Tulsa's problems (by many posters here) to be to make the City of Tulsa more unattractive to "outsiders".  You have a product, the City of Tulsa, that you are trying to sell and I consistently hear proposals of increasing fees on visitors, restricting road access (without a viable public transportation option available), and basically making a trip to Tulsa as expensive as possible.  Why?

[OUGrad05]

Assuming you could get the state constitution changed:

So you want businesses to move from Tulsa to the suburbs to help their employees avoid the "City of Tulsa Income Tax"?  What does the City of Tulsa offer to office dwellers that is not available in Owasso, Broken Arrow, Sapulpa, Sand Springs, Bixby, ....?  I don't know the percentage of businesses that own the buildings they occupy.  I expect those that rent have no real reason to stay if the cost goes up without an accompanying benefit.

Philadelphia, PA has (had in the 60s) a city income tax.  My dad was glad when his employer moved many of the office folk (including my dad) to King of Prussia.

What you propose will only work if all the neighboring cities/towns also enact a local income tax.

Sitting here as a suburbanite I often see the solution to Tulsa's problems (by many posters here) to be to make the City of Tulsa more unattractive to "outsiders".  You have a product, the City of Tulsa, that you are trying to sell and I consistently hear proposals of increasing fees on visitors, restricting road access (without a viable public transportation option available), and basically making a trip to Tulsa as expensive as possible.  Why?

Good post.

It is ridiculous to tax people who aren't citizens of the city for services they don't use.  If I became subject to such a tax I'd simply work from home and telecommute, which has some drawbacks but would be easy enough to do.

[waterboy]

Everyone wants a free ride on Tulsa's back. We're the product, but no one thinks they should have to pay for it. Instead, they want our residents to pay for their wasteful lifestyles. Fine. Stay in your small burb/cities and watch the inevitable result. Your taxes will increase as you demand what Tulsa has always provided for you. Water and waste systems, power grids, emergency services, judicial and policing systems. Then you can move into Wagoner or Creek or Osage county and start the process again. A process that is a huge waste of resources and creates stagnant, decreasing value neighborhoods as you leapfrog to newer, cheaper digs with whiter, more conservative schools. Knock yourselves out, but don't expect us to chuckle.

Companies don't decide to move offices because of their employees having to pay higher taxes. They usually don't care unless its their taxes affected. Does Houston have a city income tax? Dallas? Yeah, I just can't see companies moving to the likes of Broken Arrow because the city of Tulsa needs to pay for more cops.

[shadows]

You are mising the point, some of us do claim items purchased online when taxes are due, but most do not.  I personally try to shop locally even if it means spending more.  I like my local tax dollars going to my local community and there are ways to significantly reduce the drawbacks to enforcing sales tax on the internet, it is not nearly as difficult as you make it out to be.    Also do not think I am necessarily in favor of this, I am simply saying we have to find a way to keep local governments funded at a reasonable level. 

I am sorry that I cannot see the point in increasing taxes on the working poor to reduce the cost of a blotted governing body.  There surely must be some other way to reduce the cost than rushing out with a dump truck full of money to dump on the budget/cost ratio of providing the necessities needed for normal operations of a functioning city.  The plan to take from the captive working poor and give to blotted governmental bureaucracies should have been left in the dark age area don't you think? 

"....in order to provide for a more representative, efficient, and economical administration of municipal government," Those are the words taken from the preamble (page 3)of the amended charter.  What happened in the last twenty years or was that only to be used to program the voters? 

[Red Arrow]

WT f are you talking about?

Glenpool 9.517
Sapulpa 9.500
Collinsville 9.267
Jenks 9.267 (if tax is approved)
Bixby 9.017
Sand Springs 9.017
Claremore 9.000
Coweta 8.800
Broken Arrow 8.517
Tulsa 8.517
Owasso 8.517

Read more from this Tulsa World article at http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=324&articleid=20091214_81_A17_JENKSm673125&archive=yes





Why is Tulsa, BA and Owasso taxes the lowest?  BECAUSE THERE IS ACTUALLY STUFF TO BUY THERE!  You can be guaranteed if Tulsa were to do something COMPLETELY STUPID like raise the tax to 9%, businesses in BA would benefit because then the fairly large population of BA that normally comes to Tulsa would just stay in BA where they have everything we do minus the che che bullshit at utica square.

The city of Tulsa needs to live within its means.  BA has the same tax rate....you don't hear about massive layoffs there.  If Dewey Cheatum & Howe wanted to make progress with the constiuents, they would start reversing the disasters that put us in mess like selling the glass palace and move into some empty space at Promenade Mall.

Sorry, I was sure the Bixby tax was more than Tulsa's and thought it totaled about 9.5% as I said.  Appears I was in error.