I-44 & 161st repairs. Good timing or too late?

[sgrizzle]

TRaffic has been constrained since Friday because the bridges in this area are literally falling apart. Currently I-44 east and westbound are both one lane and 165th is closed due to falling debris. This area is only being fixed now because the Cherokees threw some resources into it.

I know we're behind on repairs, but are we to far behind?

Where is that "raise gas tax to fix roads and bridges" campaign now?

[nathanm]

I know we're behind on repairs, but are we to far behind?

Where is that "raise gas tax to fix roads and bridges" campaign now?

Yes, we are too far behind.

I seem to remember some years ago, not long after I moved to Oklahoma, there was a road/bridge bond issue defeated by the voters. I remember hearing someone explain their no vote by saying that our roads really aren't bad at all, it's just the media in cahoots with the construction companies trying to convince us that our roads are falling apart.

It was then I realized the brand of crazy that prevails around here.

It's one thing to face reality and decide you just don't want to spend the money on road maintenance, regardless of the urgency. It's another thing entirely to ignore your senses as you drive around the state and pretend that bad roads are something made up by the media.

[RecycleMichael]

As the pro-tax poster on TulsaNow, I think higher gas taxes make a lot of sense.

The current gasoline taxes are 18.4 cents per gallon nationally plus 16 cents for gasoline and 13 cents for diesel in Oklahoma plus a one cent per gallon to fund an underground storage tank account.

Surrounding state gasoline taxes are (in cents per gallon):

Arkansas 21.5 for gas and 22.5 for diesel
Kansas 24 for gas and 26 for diesel
Louisiana 20 for each
Missouri 17 for each
New Mexico 17 for gas and 18 for diesel plus one cent to fund a "loading fee"
Texas 20 for each

Other noteworthy states...

Wisconsin 32.1 cents for each
Georgia 7.5 cents for each plus 4% sales tax

[Red Arrow]

As the pro-tax poster on TulsaNow, I think higher gas taxes make a lot of sense.

The current gasoline taxes are 18.4 cents per gallon nationally plus 16 cents for gasoline and 13 cents for diesel in Oklahoma plus a one cent per gallon to fund an underground storage tank account.

How much of the current tax goes to roads?  Oklahoma has a hard earned reputation of using money for things other than promised.  Just look at all the fuss over trying to use things like the art fund for the general operating expenses. (Or something along those lines.)  If we raise the gas tax to fund roads, I have confidence that some money already being spent on roads will be diverted elsewhere.  It's the Oklahoma way.  (Even before Republicans got any control.)

Trying to keep up with the surrounding states taxes is B.S.  If we need to raise ours to provide required/desired services, then we need to do it.  Don't raise taxes just to be the same as selected surrounding states.  Look at the total picture, don't just cherry pick property tax from one state, sales tax from another, income taxes from a third and  gas tax from yet another and so on.

[RecycleMichael]

This thread ain't about property and sales tax. It is about holes in the road and how to pay for the fixes. Don't you try to change the topic to other tax burden issues...

Why is the Oklahoma diesel tax 25% lower than any surrounding state? It is to subsidize the trucking industry and to encourage them to take Oklahoma routes while crossing the country.

You want to know why our highways suck? Heavy trucks and dramatically reduced funding to fix the holes they cause ...

[Red Arrow]

Oklahoma is all about moving tax money around from dedicated accounts.  Show me that at least most of the state tax money on gas/diesel is already going to fund road repairs and maybe I'll agree with you.  Show me that surrounding states fully fund their roads with fuel taxes, federal supplements and nothing else and maybe I'll agree we should keep up with the Joneses.

Heavy trucks certainly cause more damage to roads than lighter vehicles.  They also get a lot worse fuel mileage so they pay proportionately more per mile in fuel tax. Through trucks will mostly be on US or Interstate routes which should be getting Federal Funding too. Roads have been subsidized for a long time.  It might be time to change.  It would be a hard sell, especially while trying to sell subsidized public transit. (I would support meaningful public transit.) Or, send all the through traffic somewhere else by instituting high taxes and user fees.  I know that when I am going from point A to point B that I usually only buy gas, food, and depending on the length of the trip, a night at a motel.

[MDepr2007]

Yeppers we could always raise the tax and have those "heavy trucks" fill-up before they cross the State line

This thread ain't about property and sales tax. It is about holes in the road and how to pay for the fixes. Don't you try to change the topic to other tax burden issues...

Why is the Oklahoma diesel tax 25% lower than any surrounding state? It is to subsidize the trucking industry and to encourage them to take Oklahoma routes while crossing the country.

You want to know why our highways suck? Heavy trucks and dramatically reduced funding to fix the holes they cause ...

[nathanm]

Yeppers we could always raise the tax and have those "heavy trucks" fill-up before they cross the State line

Which border state would that be with a lower diesel tax? 

Unless the plan is to raise the diesel tax more than four cents a gallon, the correct answer is "none of them." Of course, Arkansas' relatively high tax rate compared with its border states didn't deter them from setting theirs where they did. Yet somehow every time I'm in Arkansas I see a good number of trucks fueling. Go figure.

[Red Arrow]

Kansas diesel tax is .26 per RM.  If the goal is to protect our roads, raise the diesel tax to .26 and chase the traffic coming through AR south on I-30 to Texas.  A big problem with that is that I-40 is probably still the shortest route to many places.  I believe the cross-country rigs could cross OK without stopping for fuel.  I also noticed a lot more trucks on US-69 (going through Chouteau/Pryor after the toll was raised on the Will Rogers Turnpike.

I see a lot of trucks with multiple licenses (or maybe I just remember it that way).  What fees does OK impose on the big rigs other than fuel tax?  Compared to other states?

[MDepr2007]

One of use didn't correctly read the post I qouted ....  If we raise it higher so we are not 25% lower than we could be higher if we raise it more than 25%.

Which border state would that be with a lower diesel tax?  

Unless the plan is to raise the diesel tax more than four cents a gallon, the correct answer is "none of them." Of course, Arkansas' relatively high tax rate compared with its border states didn't deter them from setting theirs where they did. Yet somehow every time I'm in Arkansas I see a good number of trucks fueling. Go figure.

[patric]

I seem to remember some years ago, not long after I moved to Oklahoma, there was a road/bridge bond issue defeated by the voters. I remember hearing someone explain their no vote by saying that our roads really aren't bad at all, it's just the media in cahoots with the construction companies trying to convince us that our roads are falling apart.

State Question 723 failed in 2005 because the voters were upset that money that should have been going to maintain roads and bridges all along wasnt -- instead going to every pet project the legislature would allow.
To ask for more money amounted to double-dipping.
If anything, it was an overwhelming call for accountability.

"Oklahoma voters put the brakes on a plan to increase fuel taxes to pay for road and bridge repairs.  An overwhelming 87% of those who voted Tuesday were against SQ 723.  State election officials say it's the biggest defeat for a state question in history, beating a sales tax question in 1952, which was rejected with 86% of the vote.  The head of the group, Oklahomans for Safe Bridges and Roads, which pushed for SQ 723 says the battle might have been lost, but the war is far from being finished.  Former Transportation Secretary Neal McCaleb says he'll take his fight for more funding to the State Legislature."

[YoungTulsan]

This thread needs someone on the inside of the trucking industry to reply.

Do truckers really avoid entire states or strategically fuel before and after driving through a state because of a less than 10 cents per gallon tax burden?  I would wager a guess that no one really gives a damn.

http://gasbuddy.com/gb_gastemperaturemap.aspx

There is, at most, a 10 cent difference between OK and surrounding states (excluding 4 random counties NOT along I-40 or I-44)

So who gives a damn?

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_much_gas_does_an_eighteen_wheeler_gas_tank_hold.

Big rigs hold 200 to 400 gallons of fuel.  At an average of 300 gallons, 10 cents difference is 30 dollars.

It would operationally cost more for an arbitrary stop than it would save over a 30 dollar differential per gas tank.  Do truckers really care?  My guess is no.

I encourage any real truckers to post a reply with more legit info than my own however.

[Red Arrow]

Even at 5 mpg, 200 gallons is 1000 miles.  That would let a driver do some fuel stop planning.  Of course, tax is not the only cost of fuel.

[custosnox]

This thread needs someone on the inside of the trucking industry to reply.

Do truckers really avoid entire states or strategically fuel before and after driving through a state because of a less than 10 cents per gallon tax burden?  I would wager a guess that no one really gives a damn.


It would operationally cost more for an arbitrary stop than it would save over a 30 dollar differential per gas tank.  Do truckers really care?  My guess is no.

I encourage any real truckers to post a reply with more legit info than my own however.

I'm don't drive, however half my family does.  Truckers will not avoid an entire state, but if there is a price difference from one to another they might try to avoid refueling until they get through the state, if the next state beyond is lower.  When you run as much fuel as truckers do, every penny starts to add up.  While they won't set there and plan out the entire trip just to avoid refueling in a state, it will come to mind before they cross the border and could decide to refuel if time allows before going over to the high side.

[custosnox]

I'm don't drive, however half my family does.  Truckers will not avoid an entire state, but if there is a price difference from one to another they might try to avoid refueling until they get through the state, if the next state beyond is lower.  When you run as much fuel as truckers do, every penny starts to add up.  While they won't set there and plan out the entire trip just to avoid refueling in a state, it will come to mind before they cross the border and could decide to refuel if time allows before going over to the high side.

I stand corrected.  They will avoid an entire state depending on fuel price and tax.  Something I just learn as well is that the price you see at the pump does not reflect total cost of tax in a state.  the Interstate Fuel Tax Agreement (IFTA) is where a lot of the fuel tax lays, and taxes are not supposed to be reflected at the pump.  What IFTA is is a tax that a trucker has to pay for every mile driven in a state.  At the end of the month/quarter the drivers have to sit down with their logs and figure out how many miles where driven in a state and pay the taxes on that.  It becomes a balancing issue all the way around at this point.  They may choose to refuel before going into a state because the previous state has a lower fuel price, and drive straight through because it has a low IFTA tax.  Now, in addition to this, every truck, in August, has to pay the Federal Heavy Vehicle Use Tax (FHUT) of $555.  The FHUT is a federal tax that is to be used for rebuilding bridges and roads used by these trucks. 

I was also told to include in these figures that since trucks have a 200 gallon tank that if fuel prices are raised by just $.01 then the over all cost on refueling for a truck increases by $20 per tank.  I'll take this thought just a bit further and say that this cost ends up being defrayed back to the consumer.  When transport prices increase, it is generally reflected by the cost of goods also increasing.  And it's not a matter of greedy corporations trying to line their pockets.  A lot of OTR drivers out there are Owner/Operators that have to pay their own fuel prices, and with freight being down, every little bit makes it harder and harder for trucks to stay on the road.  I come from a family of drivers, but currently only one has managed to stay OTR, and even that has been rough.