The Dumb Masses Love Surprises

[Gaspar]

"But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it, away from the fog of the controversy."

I have an idea.  Why don't you let us know what's in it now?

Haven't finished writing it? 

Why don't you finish writing it, let people see it, then pass it?

What?  You're concerned it won't pass if people know what's in it?

Why don't you just tell us what's in it?

No?

Why not?

Is this even about healthcare anymore?

[guido911]

"But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it, away from the fog of the controversy."

I have an idea.  Why don't you let us know what's in it now?

Haven't finished writing it? 

Why don't you finish writing it, let people see it, then pass it?

What?  You're concerned it won't pass if people know what's in it?

Why don't you just tell us what's in it?

No?

Why not?

Is this even about healthcare anymore?

Elections have consequences, which in this case leads us to a real moron in charge of the House.

[dbacks fan]

I wonder if she ever sold Toyota's? "You have to buy it before you can test drive it"

[Conan71]

Shitburgers for lunch, everyone!

[Red Arrow]

Shitburgers for lunch, everyone!

On the house?

[Conan71]

On the house?

Pure awesomeness! I applaud you sir!

[nathanm]

Um, isn't the bill up for passage using reconciliation one of the same bills already passed by the House or Senate? As I recall, reconciliation is pretty much standard procedure when House and Senate versions of bills differ.

If so, I think she means that people are upset by the bill largely because of the fake controversy constantly reported by the news media. (I call it fake not because there aren't people opposed to the bill, but because the media is blowing that opposition out of proportion)

I wouldn't call it a smile sandwich by any means, but it could be much better with real cost containment measures with teeth rather than this "hope and pray" BS.

[guido911]

Um, isn't the bill up for passage using reconciliation one of the same bills already passed by the House or Senate? As I recall, reconciliation is pretty much standard procedure when House and Senate versions of bills differ.

If so, I think she means that people are upset by the bill largely because of the fake controversy constantly reported by the news media. (I call it fake not because there aren't people opposed to the bill, but because the media is blowing that opposition out of proportion)

I wouldn't call it a smile sandwich by any means, but it could be much better with real cost containment measures with teeth rather than this "hope and pray" BS.

It must be tough running around either apologizing for or explaining what other people say.

[nathanm]

It must be tough running around either apologizing for or explaining what other people say.

It's probably tougher not being able to understand what people mean, and tougher still to find yourself unable to apply Hanlon's Razor.

[Gaspar]

It's probably tougher not being able to understand what people mean, and tougher still to find yourself unable to apply Hanlon's Razor.

There is not so much that can be attributed to stupidity as to juvenile understanding of reality. 
We are simply not "subjects" to be ruled.

The whole healthcare argument has become petty.  The debate is no longer focused on the people, but rather a power struggle between an impotent administration and a disastrously out of control congress.

The debate treats the people as no more than pawns in the battle. Flies to be swatted at.

The Speaker and President use stories and analogies to support an ever more ethereal jumble of unfunded promises that no physician, accountant, or legislator understands. 

So now they have simply resorted to the lowest authority of government as motivation. . .Force. 

We even hear the language.

"Force it"
"Push it"
"Ram it"

This is force being used against the people.  This is not representative of the republic. 

We have an unpopular bill that is not even a bill. . .an unwritten conglomeration of ideas being sold as a bill that we are not allowed to see.  There is no logic here.

[nathanm]

This is force being used against the people.  This is not representative of the republic. 

We have an unpopular bill that is not even a bill. . .an unwritten conglomeration of ideas being sold as a bill that we are not allowed to see.  There is no logic here.

The people want health care reform. The ramming is referring to the obstructionists in Congress on both sides of the aisle.

Also, there is a bill. In fact, there are two. It is not an unwritten conglomeration of ideas as you claim. Even Warren Buffett thinks the Senate bill is better than what we have now, although he'd prefer they start over and do better. He said something along the lines of "Given a choice between the bill we have and doing nothing, I support the bill."

[Conan71]

The people want health care reform. The ramming is referring to the obstructionists in Congress on both sides of the aisle.

Also, there is a bill. In fact, there are two. It is not an unwritten conglomeration of ideas as you claim. Even Warren Buffett thinks the Senate bill is better than what we have now, although he'd prefer they start over and do better. He said something along the lines of "Given a choice between the bill we have and doing nothing, I support the bill."

FAIL

Warren Buffett doesn't live in the same universe as we do.  He can afford to pay cash for any medical procedure he needs so he can't possibly have an appreciation for how fortunate middle class citizens like myself feel to have good employer-provided insurance and why people like me fear the government limiting my choices in providers and benefits.  Mr. Buffett is also not an elected official, so he has nothing to gain or lose from such legislation, other than if it shifted his burden of providing insurance as a company-sponsored benefit throughout his many holdings.

It makes as much sense for Buffett to pontificate on healthcare as it does Bill Gates on "global warming" er climate change.

If people wanted healthcare reform as you say, representatives would not be running from it during an election year and would not be subject to intimidation from party leaders and the Executive Branch.  If constituents wanted HC reform, everyone in the Senate and HOR would be tripping over themselves to make this pass.  What other reason do you see for their reluctance?

[guido911]

It's probably tougher not being able to understand what people mean, and tougher still to find yourself unable to apply Hanlon's Razor.

What freakin ever. You sorta remind me of the guy at the parade with the broom cleaning up the horse smile as it drops.

[Gaspar]

The people want health care reform. The ramming is referring to the obstructionists in Congress on both sides of the aisle.

Also, there is a bill. In fact, there are two. It is not an unwritten conglomeration of ideas as you claim. Even Warren Buffett thinks the Senate bill is better than what we have now, although he'd prefer they start over and do better. He said something along the lines of "Given a choice between the bill we have and doing nothing, I support the bill."

Really?  I must have read the polls wrong.  The latest one I have from Rasmussen is 53% against and 42% in favor.  That's down from 58% against in January.

The design of our congressional system is to make bills of heavy consequence difficult to pass.  I rejoice in this.  If the ideas are firm and well thought out, then let them be written and scored by the CBO.  Let the representatives of the people read the very bill they will be voting on.  The senate bill is far from complete and they admit as much.  They are choosing the procedural "nuclear" gimmick precisely because the bill would never survive otherwise.

Healthcare reform is not the issue.  This administration wants to say it has achieved SOMTHING. . .ANYTHING!

Good Lord, this bill is between 6% and 18% of our economy.  I WANT IT WELL THOUGHT OUT, WITH ALL OF THE T'S CROSSED AND I'S DOTTED.  I WANT TO KNOW HOW MUCH IT WILL COST, WHO WILL PAY FOR IT, AND WHO IT WILL HELP.  I WANT TO KNOW BECAUSE IT AFFECTS ME, MY FAMILY, AND THE COUNTRY I LOVE. 

Now they are in a rush, because if they delay, more information will come out of the CBO as details are reveled and each time that happens we find out that there is great disparity between what the president says and what the CBO says. 

They can't afford to delay, because they can't afford for the people to know any more about it.  Funny how that slips from their lips. . . "we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it."

[nathanm]

FAIL

Warren Buffett doesn't live in the same universe as we do.  He can afford to pay cash for any medical procedure he needs so he can't possibly have an appreciation for how fortunate middle class citizens like myself feel to have good employer-provided insurance and why people like me fear the government limiting my choices in providers and benefits.  Mr. Buffett is also not an elected official, so he has nothing to gain or lose from such legislation, other than if it shifted his burden of providing insurance as a company-sponsored benefit throughout his many holdings.

It makes as much sense for Buffett to pontificate on healthcare as it does Bill Gates on "global warming" er climate change.

If people wanted healthcare reform as you say, representatives would not be running from it during an election year and would not be subject to intimidation from party leaders and the Executive Branch.  If constituents wanted HC reform, everyone in the Senate and HOR would be tripping over themselves to make this pass.  What other reason do you see for their reluctance?

Support for healthcare reform has dropped due to the obfuscation and outright lies about it promulgated by right wingers (and the drug companies and medical device manufacturers, insurance companies are on board since they will get tens of millions of new customers out of the deal) desperate to make sure that the bill doesn't pass. It's the only way they'll have a chance in 2012, and it will help them significantly in the midterms. It also didn't help that the Democrats dropped the public option at the behest of the insurance companies. The concept is pretty popular.

This stupid fear about messing up your employer-provided coverage is probably the biggest lie of all. The bill specifically does not change anything about your existing plan. It ought to. It ought to scrap the whole bucking system. It is irrevocably broken as it is. I know you don't get it because you have insurance at present, but as a young non-smoker, anything with a deductible I can afford is way out of my price range. (I used to have insurance through my SO's work, until she switched to a company that doesn't offer domestic partner benefits) Moreover, I have a pre-existing condition which would likely prevent me from getting coverage for what is most likely to be the biggest health care expense I see in my lifetime.

Besides, tying insurance to employers is stupid. One of my bigger complaints about this bill is that it does nothing to change it.

And are you really arguing that Warren Buffett, a person whose business is insurance doesn't understand insurance? I dare say he's smarter than anybody pontificating on our little forum. If he, as a person who can easily pay cash for any medical procedure he likes, thinks the insurance system is broken, we probably ought to listen to him. As one of the most successful investors of all time, if he thinks that health care is eating up an already unsustainable portion of our economy, perhaps we should listen to him.

The biggest reason Congress doesn't support it as a whole is that literally billions of dollars has been spent on lobbying by the drug companies and medical device manufacturers. They obviously have no interest in reform, as they're raking in the money already. They are the last people we should be listening to on the subject.

I could go on about what I think a better solution than this bill is, but I doubt you're interested in the least.