Tin Foil Hats for Toyota Owners?

[waterboy]

Here's a little tidbit. The patrolman who worked the accident I described above, told the woman that her black box should have recorded the operations of the car just before the collision. That would have shown whether there was indeed a brake system failure.

But the mechanic at the dealership told her that Toyota black boxes do NOT show the history of systems operations in the last 5 minutes of operation. That means there is no recording of possible system failures in any accident. Why would that be?

Think about it from their perspective. No way to prove their responsibility. No reason to show up in court and defend episodic software failures either. Any long term failures can be tracked, vehicles recalled and repaired, but the more difficult transient failures are covered by insurance. And insurance companies, if they know about this 5 minute black out, are involved with a deception that protects the corporate giant instead of their insureds. Who pays the premiums? The insured. However, by protecting Toyota they not only avoid law suits, they shift liability to the insured. That could be why her insurance company paid, no questions asked and why she was not cited for failure to stop. If so we're all being scammed.

Anyone know about the operations of black boxes and whether they differ by manufacturer?

[Hoss]

And a redundant system is more likely to catch that error.

It's also more likely to drive up costs.  You think the big auto makers want to price their product out of the middle class?  That's their bread and butter.  Especially with Toyota.

[buckeye]

They presumably vary within even one manufacturer's output.  Speaking out of hand here, the Prius has a good deal more instrumentation than other cars in Toyota's lineup and it makes sense that their "black box" would record more data.  AFAIK, many cars' computers constantly record the most recent 5 - 20 seconds of OBD-II data.

The Truth About Cars blog has a lot of good writing on the subject with many knowledgeable commenters.

EFI cars have -not- had DBW throttle for years.  No EFI car I've owned except the present one (2006 model) has DBW, not even the 2002 Exploder.  There is still a throttle plate but the computer has full control of it with DBW.  Cable throttle cars did have some kind of air bypass that the computer could control to regulate idle and such, but overall control was still in the driver's right foot (in combination with the computer's fuel maps - which were still ultimately deployed by the whim of the foot).  Towards the end of the Dark Ages, many carb'ed cars had computer controls on emissions and fueling as well.

I'd wager that just about any car equipped with disc brakes and built within the last forty years could stop itself with the throttle stuck open.  Pure speculation, of course.  Certainly any car available to us within the last twenty is that capable.  The Prius has kind of a multi-stage braking system, where the first part of the pedal travel is regenerative (wheels turn the electric motor as a generator) and more emphatic braking switches to the ordinary hydraulic setup.  Beyond that, a "panic" braking input automatically drops the transmission into neutral and slows the engine speed to idle.  Of course, if there's a set of perfect storm type coincident failures, the software that governs all this might not fulfill its panic stop duties.

Electric power steering just means that the pump is driven by an electric motor instead of the gas engine (by way of a belt).  Most of what I read complains of a "lack of feel" or "feedback" from such a setup, but it's got a lot of growing up to do.

Now that's out of the way, I'm glad to drive a manual transmission.  I have two, count 'em, TWO pedals that will stop the car one way or another.  Plus a lever to disengage the engine from the drive wheels.  Plus a regular ignition switch.  Plus a thorough knowledge of the owner's manual that tells me explicitly how my particular car handles all that stuff.  I feel safer just talking about it.

I have a very difficult time believing in these conspiracy theories.  Are lawmakers and top executives in huge companies in cahoots?  Certainly, but I have little faith in our present government, insurers' and carmakers' abilities to orchestrate an elaborate (and effective) plan to screw everybody.

[patric]

At least they investigated and debunked that idiot Prius driver. He was a real-estate con-artist who was 5-months behind on his lease for the vehicle, and had recently declared bankruptcy.

Toyota's "Baloon Boy" approach of discrediting people may backfire...

EL CAJON, California (AP) — A California Highway Patrol report released Wednesday said an officer saw brake lights flashing after arriving to help slow a speeding Toyota Prius on a Southern California freeway.
The account in the report is consistent with details the driver and CHP officer gave reporters shortly after the incident. Toyota, however, has cast doubt on the driver's story.
The lights were on "for a period of time and would turn off, indicating the driver was possibly pumping the brakes," CHP Officer Todd Neibert wrote in his seven-page incident report.
"I was within ¼ mile of the vehicle and could smell the heated brakes which indicated they had been used extensively."

[Red Arrow]

It's also more likely to drive up costs.  You think the big auto makers want to price their product out of the middle class?  That's their bread and butter.  Especially with Toyota.

It would be interesting to know if a second computer would be more expensive than keeping a mechanical cable to the "throttle".  I believe even the new cars still have a butterfly valve (or multiple ones) of some sort to control air flow. 

Yes, cost would go up. 

Although I'm sure Toyota will eventually fix the problem, they will lose some customer base if their reputation for safety and reliability degrade.  That would be even more costly.  No need to cite the obvious examples.


I think that most new cars are really above the affordable level of the middle class anyway.  Car loans used to only be for 3 or maybe 4 years (decades ago).  Now in order to make them (choke, gasp, wheeze) affordable, loans are available out to at least 6 years.

[nathanm]

EL CAJON, California (AP) — A California Highway Patrol report released Wednesday said an officer saw brake lights flashing after arriving to help slow a speeding Toyota Prius on a Southern California freeway.
The account in the report is consistent with details the driver and CHP officer gave reporters shortly after the incident. Toyota, however, has cast doubt on the driver's story.
The lights were on "for a period of time and would turn off, indicating the driver was possibly pumping the brakes," CHP Officer Todd Neibert wrote in his seven-page incident report.
"I was within ¼ mile of the vehicle and could smell the heated brakes which indicated they had been used extensively."

Sounds like driver error to me.

[Red Arrow]

Electric power steering just means that the pump is driven by an electric motor instead of the gas engine (by way of a belt).  Most of what I read complains of a "lack of feel" or "feedback" from such a setup, but it's got a lot of growing up to do.

If the way the pump is driven is the only difference, the feedback should not be an issue.  

GM has frequently (always?) used a slightly flexible segment in the steering column connection to the driving gear in the gearbox or rack & pinion (Backed up by hard stops to limit deflection) to allow the boost, at the same pump pressure, to be modulated to provide feedback.  At least from the 50s to 1998, those are the years I have any shop manuals for. I remember that Chrysler products (friend's 66 Charger) had a lot less steering feel than my 66 Buick Skylark GS.  I don't know how the MOPAR system worked.


Edit:
I looked up Electric Power Steering on Google/wikipedia.  The configuration you mention exists/existed but the newest EPS is different.  EPS mechanically connects an electric motor to the steering column shaft (or equivalent in the steering box / rack & pinion unit) and directly applies torque to reduce the steering effort by the driver.  Lots of magic in how much and when.

[sauerkraut]

Tell that to Toyota owners with "fly by wire" throttle controls. (At least that is my understanding.) My ex-airline (retired) pilot friend says that even the engine controls on the airbus have redundancy.

Some new cars have "electric power steering".  I haven't found out yet exactly what that entails. I hope there is still a mechanical path.

Yes -and if the transmission is also "shift by wire" with no backup you can't shift into "N" if the engine runs out of control and  computer goes bonkers (or gets a glitch) since that computer also controls the transmission shift lever and the computer won't let a moving car shift into "N"... Now if the cars KEY is also on/off/start by wire the computer may not let you shut the engine off of a moving car because the computer will think that is unsafe- what can a driver do? I think just about all new cars today are drive by wire. What I said early on in another post is that some people believe a UAW guy is standing along side the roads & highways and zapping Toyotas he sees passing by  with a electron ray gun pulse to disable or confuse the Toyotas computer and make the car run out of control. I don't believe it- but at another forum there is a poster who seems think that is the case, I doubt he's the only person who believes that way.

[buckeye]

... newer EPS mechanically connects an electric motor to the steering column shaft

Oh, that's cool.  News to me, I'll have to do some reading.

I may be wrong, but pretty sure it would take a significant EMP to disable or seriously disrupt a car's computer - significant enough that the device required would arouse no small interest on the side of the road.

[Red Arrow]

Oh, that's cool.  News to me, I'll have to do some reading.

I may be wrong, but pretty sure it would take a significant EMP to disable or seriously disrupt a car's computer - significant enough that the device required would arouse no small interest on the side of the road.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_steering

About 1/2 down in the text it describes the system.

[buckeye]

Always heard that the NSX had electric power steering (usually spoken in a low, reverent tone that belied ignorance of its workings) but suffered just that very ignorance.  Certainly the NSX was never faulted for poor steering feel, although that comment's been made about the S2000 on occasion.  I agree with the article that manual steering does offer the best feel.  Interesting stuff and illustrates cars' increasing dependence on software.  DBW steering?  Seriously?  That scares me a lot more than a throttle failure.

Making cars safer is a worthy and necessary pursuit, but it's getting to the point that the safety -software- makes a car easily drivable in a much more dangerous circumstance.  It's now possible to drive faster and with less concern for quick control inputs in inclement conditions, but should a driver overstep the stability/traction control software's ability to adjust and correct, the consequences are worse.  In a sense, these systems are enabling ever-increasing incompetence in the driving public.

Give me a cabled throttle and clutch, manual windows, unassisted steering and ABS that's easily defeatable (for snow and gravel).

To put on the tinfoil hat:  In a few years, the government will have full ability to take control of your car -at any time-.  In fact, there's an OnStar commercial demonstrating it.  Oh sure, they'll only ever take control of a car when there's reckless law breaking going on, right?  "You never need worry, citizen, TRUST us; we're the government and we're here to help.  Oh shoot, are my horns showing?  Don't let them see the tail either."

[sauerkraut]

They said on channel 2 today that the government is now going to get involved with Toyota's "speed-up" problem. I'd guess Toyota cannot figure out what the problem is or they don't want to figure it out because the fix is too costly. I knew it all along it had to be in the 'lectronics or computer system, it's not the gas pedal or floor mats.

[Red Arrow]

They said on channel 2 today that the government is now going to get involved with Toyota's "speed-up" problem. I'd guess Toyota cannot figure out what the problem is or they don't want to figure it out because the fix is too costly. I knew it all along it had to be in the 'lectronics or computer system, it's not the gas pedal or floor mats.

Nah.  They just want to be industrial spies so they can fix GM.

[dbacks fan]

From buckeye:


"I'd wager that just about any car equipped with disc brakes and built within the last forty years could stop itself with the throttle stuck open.  Pure speculation, of course.  Certainly any car available to us within the last twenty is that capable. "

I maybe wrong, but what is one of the biggest advances since disc brakes? Anti Lock Brake System. You can't lock up the brakes with the foot brake anymore. Lock the brakes you get the friction from the tires sliding on pavement and slow down. ABS pulses the brakes so they don't lock up, and if you have a car that is accelerating at 3/4 to wide open you start applying the brakes and press harder or even jam on the brakes and the pads heat up and glaze over until they become useless. I think that the should program the ECM that brak overides throttle, period.

[waterboy]

At the start of this thread I referenced a Road & Track article that showed even the strongest high performance cars today, like the Mustang, have braking systems that are able to overcome their high horsepower. I will look it up and post it here. That is the reverse of cars in the 60's-70's that could easily overcome their drum type brakes with their 450+hp motors because they didn't have disk brakes or ABS. I think it was the Cadillacs that first came out with the system which was problem prone and unreliable at that time.

The question here it seems is whether the Toyota system has a glitch that engages full throttle, overides the ABS and forbids the car from shifting into an electronic neutral. The conspiracy to me is that many people in the insurance and enforcement areas seem to be aware of the problem but Toyota acts totally surprised.