Tin Foil Hats for Toyota Owners?

[waterboy]

I haven't seen any conversation around here concerning the Toyota problems. I currently work retail which means I talk with a lot of people each week from all walks of life. Several things people always like to talk about: their phones, their computers and their cars.

Lately, I've heard some comments that a conspiracy of sorts is in play. It goes like this: Toyota has a software problem that they refuse to admit to; local dealerships are aware of it AND large insurance companies like Farmers are also aware of the problem. The argument used during the banking/financial crisis "too big to fail" is being used once again for America's largest auto manufacturer and its largest insurers, both of whom stand to suffer greatly should it be released that both parties knew of these problems and attempted to hide the facts. Not to mention the banks who extended credit to Toyota buyers who may find their assets' values in jeopardy. They could be upside down on their loans pretty quickly.

This week I heard a first hand story of a woman whose Toyota Avalon brakes failed and caused a bad accident. The local dealer held the car for three weeks waiting for a response from headquarters. Finally, Toyota would only say that there was no recall issued for this vehicle. True, but not really what the owner was asking. The lady was not cited by the patrolman, the insurance company fixed both cars with little comment and the local dealer refused to give the woman a list of repairs and repair parts. Sounds fishy.

I honestly believe they have a software problem but I don't know about the rest. I saw where an angry ex-employee of a car lot was arrested for engaging the dealers' "lock-out" software which disables a vehicle and starts cars honking using the on-star system. Doesn't seem like much of a stretch to envision an enemy of Toyota remotely doing the same or planting a bug within a system as well.

America needs another good conspiracy don't we?

[Hawkins]

That's funny because I thought the big conspiracy was that there is nothing wrong with these cars.

The whole thing is just being fabricated by GM and Ford, and Congress is playing along to demonize what has become the #1 car manufacturer in the world, so that GM can make its comeback.

And if you think about it, considering the 800-bazillion Toyotas that are on the road, it is highly unlikely that they actually have a software glitch or there would be a whole lot more dead drivers.

At least they investigated and debunked that idiot Prius driver. He was a real-estate con-artist who was 5-months behind on his lease for the vehicle, and had recently declared bankruptcy.

[rwarn17588]

My explanation is simpler: You've either got people faking the problems in an effort to win the liability lottery, or you've simply got people who stomped on the accelerator instead of the brake or their foot missed the brake entirely.

[custosnox]

At least they investigated and debunked that idiot Prius driver. He was a real-estate con-artist who was 5-months behind on his lease for the vehicle, and had recently declared bankruptcy.

Just wondering where you got this info from.  The last I heard was that Toyata was investigating and couldn't replicate the results (which would be a big duh either way).

[waterboy]

There is less skepticism about the Prius that crashed in New York. The Cali guy is suspect of, but not proven to be a scammer. If you hold to the conspiracy theory, the first thing you would do is cull his past and discredit him.

Here's the thing that really makes it a good story. Road and Track conducted a study with several different vehicles (not Toyotas) where they forced the cars into a full acceleration, then simultaneously applied the brakes in a panic stop scenario. The brakes in all the vehicles were able to overcome the engine. Some of them were programmed to shut the engine down while others simply slowed down. Even the Ford Mustang with a hi-po engine eventually stopped. R&T's conclusion was that these other manufacturers had faced the problem of erratic accelerator performance by watching Audi's problems and failures back in the 90's and making adjustments. They surmise the Toyota execs tried to skate.

[sauerkraut]

Some people believe the UAW is tampering with Toyota cars. I think Toyota has a defect and they don't know how to fix it, cars today are more complex than the 1973  moon rocket was. Simpler is better.

[rwarn17588]

Some people believe the UAW is tampering with Toyota cars. I think Toyota has a defect and they don't know how to fix it, cars today are more complex than the 1973  moon rocket was. Simpler is better.

This is so wrong-headed on several levels.

First of all, UAW workers are employed at Japanese car plants as well as American plants. So there's no logic for tampering.

As for "simpler is better," I don't think you'd like to drive new cars that don't have electronic ignition, nor would you like working on a Commodore computer.

[Conan71]

This is so wrong-headed on several levels.

First of all, UAW workers are employed at Japanese car plants as well as American plants. So there's no logic for tampering.

As for "simpler is better," I don't think you'd like to drive new cars that don't have electronic ignition, nor would you like working on a Commodore computer.

Really? Which Japanese plants in the US have been organized by UAW? I wasn't aware of any which weren't joint ventures with US based manufacturers.

[custosnox]

Some people believe the UAW is tampering with Toyota cars. I think Toyota has a defect and they don't know how to fix it, cars today are more complex than the 1973  moon rocket was. Simpler is better.

I would have to say that "simpler is better" depends on what your purpose is.  With cars, if you want something that is easy to work on, then yes, it applies.  However, if you want efficiency, better emmisions and safety, then simpler is not better .  I would hate to be driving an old detroit beast daily with today's gas prices. 

[nathanm]

Some people believe the UAW is tampering with Toyota cars. I think Toyota has a defect and they don't know how to fix it, cars today are more complex than the 1973  moon rocket was. Simpler is better.

Simpler doesn't let you get almost 400 horsepower out of a naturally aspirated V6. Simpler is wasteful of resources.

With complexity does come the need for greater engineering discipline, especially when replacing mechanical controls with software. It can be done. (Take the Space Shuttle as a great example of getting the software side nearly perfect, even as the hardware turns out to be not so great)

[Red Arrow]

Simpler doesn't let you get almost 400 horsepower out of a naturally aspirated V6. Simpler is wasteful of resources.

With complexity does come the need for greater engineering discipline, especially when replacing mechanical controls with software. It can be done. (Take the Space Shuttle as a great example of getting the software side nearly perfect, even as the hardware turns out to be not so great)

Aircraft and spacecraft incorporate some form(s) of redundancy for fly by wire.  I haven't seen that on automobiles.  It may be there but I haven't seen it.

[Hoss]

Aircraft and spacecraft incorporate some form(s) of redundancy for fly by wire.  I haven't seen that on automobiles.  It may be there but I haven't seen it.

Yes, but fly-by-wire in airplanes is different.  Computer controls the engine in automobiles.  Same is true of airliners, especially the Airbuses, but they also employ computer control on the their control surfaces (essentially, steering the plane).  Automobiles still use rack and pinion steering, at least most of the new ones I know do.  There's the difference.  Not necessarily as needed on automobiles.

[Red Arrow]

Yes, but fly-by-wire in airplanes is different.  Computer controls the engine in automobiles.  Same is true of airliners, especially the Airbuses, but they also employ computer control on the their control surfaces (essentially, steering the plane).  Automobiles still use rack and pinion steering, at least most of the new ones I know do.  There's the difference.  Not necessarily as needed on automobiles.

Tell that to Toyota owners with "fly by wire" throttle controls. (At least that is my understanding.) My ex-airline (retired) pilot friend says that even the engine controls on the airbus have redundancy.

Some new cars have "electric power steering".  I haven't found out yet exactly what that entails. I hope there is still a mechanical path.

[Hoss]

Tell that to Toyota owners with "fly by wire" throttle controls. (At least that is my understanding.) My ex-airline (retired) pilot friend says that even the engine controls on the airbus have redundancy.

Some new cars have "electric power steering".  I haven't found out yet exactly what that entails. I hope there is still a mechanical path.

All cars have that now (fly by wire throttle controls), and any car that has EFI has had it for years.  Don't have the throttle plate anymore.  It's a potentiometer that reads the position on the accelerator.  Problem as I understand it is that Toyotas have a software flaw in the car that allows the runaway throttle behavior.  Sofar, no others do.  If Toyota would just acknowledge the flaw and correct it, this should be over.  But like ALL big industry, they feel like they can do no wrong, so they deny the problem.

[Red Arrow]

All cars have that now (fly by wire throttle controls), and any car that has EFI has had it for years.  Don't have the throttle plate anymore.  It's a potentiometer that reads the position on the accelerator.  Problem as I understand it is that Toyotas have a software flaw in the car that allows the runaway throttle behavior.  Sofar, no others do.  If Toyota would just acknowledge the flaw and correct it, this should be over.  But like ALL big industry, they feel like they can do no wrong, so they deny the problem.

And a redundant system is more likely to catch that error.