Political perceptions Re: North Tulsa Grocery Store

[buckeye]

And yes, FOTD really went nuts there at the end.  The posts were increasingly paranoid and irrational.

[waterboy]

I don't understand your post. I have a business degree. I believe in capitalism. I would like to see us practice it here someday.

Shadow isn't a Luddite, he's a Bircher and bitcher. I simply note the reality I see and contrast it with the comments made here. If there is a single point I made that is not defensible, I stand ready to retract it. Meanwhile, no one has pointed anything out except that I may have misinterpreted their true feelings.

I don't defend AOX either though I enjoyed his bravery in the face of overwhelming odds. Same with FBear. I simply have watched the forum slowly move away from diverse thought and opinion. Why shouldn't those who post so frequently and passionately here object to being called out when they go too far?  What I read here now is fraternity babble and bumper sticker stuff.

But you're okay.

[buckeye]

If you're being patronizing with that last bit, don't.  If not, I apologize and give you my thanks.  Too hard to tell.

Otherwise...

Shadows has explicitly blamed computers and manufacturing robots for wrecking his world and would gladly see them destroyed or at least retired.

Your "belie[f] in capitalism" is belied by stuff like "It doesn't matter to their employer how well they produce. They are merely elements of production," which smacks of internet-anticapitaistl-commando talk.

I assume AOX is a previous iteration of FOTD.  "Bravery in the face of overwhelming odds?"  I'd say the overwhelming odds against him had to do mostly with living in reality.  In that sense, maybe we agree on something.

Diverse thought and opinion is one thing - constant vomiting of irrational, destructive ramblings like the two posters you've mentioned is quite another.  You go too far saying that the forum is now a homogenized pastiche of fraternity babble and bumper sticker stuff.  There's a bit of that anywhere one looks, but for the most part, your comment just serves to insult.  Certainly you haven't ranged into dragonland, but frankly you're poking around at the border.  But this is all way off topic...and I'll leave it alone now.

[nathanm]

Your "belie[f] in capitalism" is belied by stuff like "It doesn't matter to their employer how well they produce. They are merely elements of production," which smacks of internet-anticapitaistl-commando talk.

Perhaps you aren't familiar with the actual definition of capitalism, but what we have here in this country is but one example of how it might be implemented. China is another. Japan is another. France is yet another. We all do things differently, yet we all throw our lot in with the engine we call capitalism.

Capitalism and respect for workers are not mutually exclusive things. Vacation days are not anti-capitalist. Personal time is not anti-capitalist. Flexible working hours are not anti-capitalist. I don't know where you get the idea that these things are somehow undermining our economic system.

It's unfortunate that the rantings of right wingers (I single them out because they the first and the loudest in my lifetime) have confused people more and more about what capitalism is, what socialism is, and what communism is. Their muddying of the meanings of these words has done a great job of making it impossible for people to come to an understanding of each other's viewpoints and accelerated the partisan divide in this country.

[waterboy]

I'm pretty much with Nathan here. In fact totally with him.

I have nothing to be ashamed of in my post and I stand by it. From your posts I would deduce that you are something of an engineer not a businessman capitalist pig like myself. Either that, or you haven't worked hourly for quite some time and have not seen what is happening in the workplace. Until your last post I actually did think we just disagreed on a few items but you were okay. Had no reason to think otherwise. I was being somewhat tongue in cheek. But if you can't see what's happened here on this forum and in the "real" world then yes, you are one of them. I'll say again, I have worked for 42 years from a Safeway sacker to an executive at the 7th largest oil company in the world, to a self employed entrepreneur and back to a lowly retail employee. I am immersed in reality.

Tune in to that new show on cable where they take executives and put them in lower end hourly positions so they can see what is actually happening. They are stunned. Some of them have gotten fired. Or better yet, take a few weeks off and apply for one of those wonderful positions and feel what its like to be one of the highest producing employees in the building who is told that if they get sick one more day they will be fired. I see it all the time. (if the stockholders only knew!) Especially now after a decade of expanding power for corporates, disappearing mid level jobs and a poor economy, producing employees are so much chattel. The poor quality of new employees entering the workplace doesn't help but its no excuse for the treatment they receive.

Enough already. Its not enough to just open a grocery store where there is pent up demand. I wonder if they've done the marketing necessary to keep those customers coming? I just went to Reasors 12 hr sale which is always a real success in bringing in customers and I suspect a lot of Northside residents were shopping there. Does anyone know if they've aggressively marketed to the area?

[YoungTulsan]

I wonder if they've done the marketing necessary to keep those customers coming? I just went to Reasors 12 hr sale which is always a real success in bringing in customers and I suspect a lot of Northside residents were shopping there. Does anyone know if they've aggressively marketed to the area?

I think this guy going to the news and threatening to close down IS his marketing plan.  Get on the news, get people worried about its closure, get people talking about his store...

[Red Arrow]

I think this guy going to the news and threatening to close down IS his marketing plan.  Get on the news, get people worried about its closure, get people talking about his store...

Could be.

There was a men's clothing store in the town where I grew up that had a "Going out of Business Sale" every spring.

[we vs us]

I don't think it's far-fetched to suggest that lower income people would find it easier and cheaper to rely on fast food.  It's expensive and amazingly time consuming to cook healthy meals.  It also takes a certain amount of nutritional education that most Americans -- regardless of socio-economic status -- don't have.  In a macro sense, being healthy in America takes more resources than it used to.  If your resources are stretched, it's very very hard to implement. And fast food is very very easy.

All of that said, it's simplistic to suggest that that's the reason the grocery store's declining.  North Tulsa is much more diverse than any of us give it credit for being, and while there are undoubtedly Poor Folk-Who-Eat-Fast-Food-Exclusively, there are also Gilcrease Hills Muckety-Mucks, Airport Apartment Dwellers, Owen Park Rehabbers, etc etc.  North Tulsa's a big place.

[TURobY]

It also takes a certain amount of nutritional education that most Americans -- regardless of socio-economic status -- don't have.  In a macro sense, being healthy in America takes more resources than it used to.

Actually, it's quite the opposite. Social scientists are noting that the American palate is increasingly becoming more advanced and refined. You must realize that the majority of American cuisine came from utilizing the "leftover" and "less-desirable" parts of animals. Now, we are focusing on organic foods and more advanced flavors and spices (see: Campbells new soups using morels and pink sea salt). We dont have the culinary/historical advantage of some of the European and Asian markets, but we are increasingly closing the gap.

[Conan71]

We did some shopping at the Los Americas at Admiral & Lewis on Saturday.  If, in fact, the offerings at Gateway are similar, then I could see why that's not translating well to the black community.  I still intend to get by Gateway on lunch one day to see it for myself.  If the store is mis-merchandised for the community it seeks to serve, it WILL fail.

Has anyone participating in this discussion actually been there?

[Gaspar]

My intensions and the intensions of most on this thread was to look at a failing business, and figure out what is wrong with the model, in the hopes that the model can be adjusted, or that others will not make the same mistakes. 

No one was passing any judgment on any part of town or group of people.  This thread, and the intensions of those providing insight, research, and opinion is over now.  It died through strange personal attacks on the posters.

Just for the heck of it I ran the demographic study for this area with a ½ mile and 1 mile band over the weekend.  I intended to post it this morning because the results are surprising, both in income, and purchasing habits.  It costs me money to purchase demographic reports.

After reading the INSANITY that some descended into on this subject, I really don't care about this audience any more. 

[Hawkins]

You know, with all this discussion, I think an important aspect has been overlooked.

Tulsa is owned by Wal-Mart, and there is a Super Wal-Mart at Admiral and Memorial.
If this newcomer isn't selling Pepsi products, and has a high mark-up, he's probably losing most of his business to that store.

Running a grocery store anywhere in Tulsa is a lose/lose deal, and soon we won't have any except Neighborhood Wal-Marts, Super Wal-Marts, 3 Super Targets, and the specialty stores, like Akins.

--

I guess I was off topic earlier about the Homeland, but looking back, Homelands were union worker stores (I actually worked at one during High-School and they took $5 out of every check for union dues). Thus, they were one of the first to go as the Neighborhood Wal-Marts began their takeover.

[SXSW]

You know, with all this discussion, I think an important aspect has been overlooked.

Tulsa is owned by Wal-Mart, and there is a Super Wal-Mart at Admiral and Memorial.
If this newcomer isn't selling Pepsi products, and has a high mark-up, he's probably losing most of his business to that store.

Running a grocery store anywhere in Tulsa is a lose/lose deal, and soon we won't have any except Neighborhood Wal-Marts, Super Wal-Marts, 3 Super Targets, and the specialty stores, like Akins.

--

I guess I was off topic earlier about the Homeland, but looking back, Homelands were union worker stores (I actually worked at one during High-School and they took $5 out of every check for union dues). Thus, they were one of the first to go as the Neighborhood Wal-Marts began their takeover.

You can easily avoid Wal-Mart in Tulsa with several Food Pyramid's, a few Homeland's, and locally-owned Reasor's scattered throughout the city.  The new Reasor's in Jenks is, IMO, the nicest grocery store in the state and their locations at 15th & Lewis and 71st & Sheridan are nice as well.  You also have Whole Foods in Brookside, Akin's in midtown, and Petty's in Utica Square.  There definitely could be more options but with what is currently available you can avoid Wal-Mart and Target if you want to.

[RecycleMichael]

I have been shopping at the Harp's store in east Tulsa at 31st and Garnett. They have a surprisingly good meat department and reasonable prices on the staples.

I also like going to Aldi's. They have weird brands but some great prices as well.

[Gaspar]

I have been shopping at the Harp's store in east Tulsa at 31st and Garnett. They have a surprisingly good meat department and reasonable prices on the staples.

I also like going to Aldi's. They have weird brands but some great prices as well.

We love that Harps.  They were doing double coupons last week.  We went on Sunday and got $72 worth of groceries for $27.  Well worth the drive.

They have great meat too.  You can buy a whole beef tenderloin for about $35.  ends up being about $3 to $5 a fillet depending on how thick you like them.